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Marshall, MI

If you planted a 255 mitchell and polinated it with a 157 bright . The 255 produces a 270#melon and the 157 produces a190# melon. Question Is: If the 157 had produced a 350# melon instead of a 190#melon would this in any way have changed the outcome of the 255# offspring??
Would the 270# have been bigger or would it have made no difference at all untill the following year.??????????

3/24/2011 8:00:06 PM

formerly RGG

I think it is what it is. The genetics that the 157 passed to the 270 could in no way be affected by a different outcome of the offspring of the 157. Not this year, the following year or any year.

3/24/2011 8:52:20 PM

Muddy Waters

Wow Im Lost! If my Aunt had testicles she would have been my uncle!!lol

3/24/2011 9:50:42 PM

Muddy Waters

what did you pollinate the 157 with?

3/24/2011 10:00:42 PM

Muddy Waters

Are you asking does the male pollinator have an effect on the size of the present fruit on plant??

3/24/2011 10:03:13 PM

Bowdon, GA

I think Mr. Edwards was wanting to know if the daddy has any effect on this years melon or next years? I'm not sure but I would think next year. I think Chris had a great idea by taking two plants that he new the out come (this year) and crossing them at the end of the season. Just in time for seeds to mature.

3/24/2011 10:18:41 PM

Marshall, MI

Hi mr dreamer.
Differnt outcomes of the 157 offspring would have to effect
the 270 in some way if not this year it would effect it next year. If not why would we bother to cross polinate???

3/24/2011 10:34:56 PM

sevierville, Tn

The 255 would have produced 270 this year no matter what it was pollinated with or what the pollinator(daddy) produced.
The daddys effects will show up in the seeds from the 270 .

3/24/2011 10:35:41 PM

formerly RGG

Hi Bill, you asked if the male plant that pollinated a female would have a different effect on the female if it had itself produced a different size melon.The size of the melon produced by a plant that had pollinated another plant would have absolutely no effect on what the pollen donor did for the female it donated the pollen to. And, of course, Chris and Jake are correct in that the genetics from the 157 would not be apparent until the seeds from the 270 were planted.

3/24/2011 10:52:51 PM

Marshall, MI

yes handyhomegrown:
I was asking does the male pollinator have an effect on size of present fruit on plant. and if the male pollinator was bigger or smaller would it also have an effect on the present fruit? Thinking bigger possibly.
Im sure it will effect it next year. I thought i was making
myself clear. sorry im just learning how to use this
newfangeled device.

3/24/2011 11:01:05 PM

formerly RGG

I am sorry Bill. I should have tried harder to understand what you were wanting to know. You just didn't get the words down quite like you intended. That is correct, a male pollinator will not have any effect on the melon it pollinates. It will have a very big effect (50% of the genetics) on the seeds it has helped to produce.

3/24/2011 11:14:46 PM

Marshall, MI

I think we all believe as smoky mt said and we all know the
270 seeds would be effected next year
Iwas just wondering if anyone out there thought any differnt.

3/24/2011 11:15:13 PM

formerly RGG

The size of the melon that the pollen comes from has absolutely no effect on the genetics it's pollen would pass on to any female it pollinated. If it did then Chris might as well throw away the seeds from his 35. Genes and melon size can be related but great genetics does not necessarily equal great size melons. For example the 35 Kent has great genetics but as it was a late pollination it produced a very small melon. Lots of growers are wanting to grow this seed because it appears to be a very good cross. What the genes from this melon are would be the same if the melon was 35 pounds or had grown to 335 pounds.

3/24/2011 11:23:48 PM

formerly RGG

I think we are all on the same page now. :)

3/24/2011 11:24:44 PM

Watervalley Ms

Mr Edwards your 267x267 cross the female 267 pleasant weighed 221# what did your melon weigh from the 267 edwards male pollinator plant.

3/24/2011 11:42:16 PM

Watervalley Ms

Hey Chris 264 kent x 249 bright 07 maybe a good cross just a thought.

3/24/2011 11:49:28 PM

Muddy Waters

Ok I see said the blind man,I do believe the male has a effect on the size of the present fruit,Im still a little lost on IF thing.Thats why im using the 157 male on alot of my melons this year,I think the 157 is the stud to have Why wouldnt the male pollinator have an effect on present fruit?.I have 2 daughters,look & built like me 1 even acts like me, poor thing.My wife also has 2 sons from previous marriage both boys have dads size & build there small guys,The mother my wife evidently wasnt the dictator of genetics the males were,Why do we think the male has no in fluence on present year friut,Im Lost on this one.

3/25/2011 6:38:24 AM

Muddy Waters

Sorry Bill I wasnt busting your chops,just lost on the IF thing,I think theres 2 many Varibles to figure this all out with out a lab tech & a Univeristy behind you.Isnt each seed in a fruit different like snowflakes no 2 are the same.Then the male flowers on a plant hundreds of them I bet no 2 are the same (Basic genectics the same)but with different sizes,shapes some may be lets say challenged.So at some point this becomes a crap shoot.Im pretty good at shootin the Crap.So wish me luck.Does any of this make sense to you guys?

3/25/2011 6:58:47 AM

Berlin,mi.(zuhlke2@hotmail.com)

Holy cow !! Bill has finally made it to the internet. Welcome aboard Bill. There's no turning back now. lol.

3/25/2011 7:07:14 AM

Corryton, TN

Imagine crossing a Surgar Baby type watermelon, as the male, with a CC. If the male effected the cross you would expect to see not only as huge size reduction but other changes like color and shape.

It's like crossing a White Leghorn hen (white egg producer) with a Rhode Island Red bantam rooster (brown egg type). The eggs from the hen will still be white and large. Its the chicks that will resemble mom, dad, neither or both.

3/25/2011 7:21:13 AM

Marshall, MI

Hi gang:
You have to admit igot everyone thinking and talking and thats what its all about.
Im sure theres some more thoughts on this lets here them.

3/25/2011 7:41:51 AM

Muddy Waters

Ok Chris just called me And explained the whole thing.It was like landing a 747 but Im good now!I will still use the 157 as my stud anywho I think it will make some great crosses Bill you are really turning some heads on here! Thats Great Master teach these grasshoppers!!!lol

3/25/2011 8:06:18 AM

I crossed an owl with a goat and got a Hootin-nanny. lol

3/25/2011 8:11:16 AM

Bethlehem CT

As far as I know the only thing that might be affected by the pollinator are the color and look of the seeds in the fruit.(brown or white) If any of you have ever grown sweet corn, you know that it has to be isolated between types. Cross pollination between a supersweet type and a regular sugary variety will yield off type kernels. (Seeds)
So if you pollinated a white seeded melon's flower with the pollen from a dark seeded type. You may get dark seeds that year from your melon. I have seen this happen with my pumpkins. ( white seeded verses tan seeded)

3/25/2011 8:12:52 AM

formerly RGG

Even a self pollinated plant can produce seeds of a different color as this will sometimes help a recessive trait to express itself. For example last I planted a white seed from my 207 last year. I self pollinated it and the resulting melon yielded brown seeds.

3/25/2011 8:32:36 AM

Watervalley Ms

If it is posable for the seed color to be changed by the male flower it is posable for it to change other things during the cross that year. From what i have read it does change until the next year & even then some of the traits may not show 2 3 years later.

3/25/2011 8:32:56 AM

Trinity River Bottom

Not sure if this counts or not but back in 1990 when my now exwife was pregnant with my son she grew a beard started dipping snuff and got a real bad temper. LOL

3/25/2011 8:43:06 AM

formerly RGG

From everything I have read you are wrong about that melonman.The seeds are the result of cross pollination. All other parts of the plant are the results of the genetics the plant was born with. My first wife was a result of the genetics she was born with. My daughter (my wife's seed) was the result of both her genes and mine.Having sex with my wife in no way changed my wife's genetics as having a baby melon pollinated by another melon in no way changes the structure of the plant it pollinates. The melon is just a carrier of the seeds as a females womb is just a carrier for a baby.Plant and melon are unchanged with the exception of the seeds which are a result of the genes of both the male and the female plants.Anything that has new genetics will be changes (the seeds) and anything with unaltered genetics (everything else)will remain unchanged.

3/25/2011 8:57:29 AM

Watervalley Ms

I see what you are saying the seed color only will change and traits inside the seed. The traits from the parents show up in the next generations some times the traits skip a year is this not right?

3/25/2011 9:29:43 AM

formerly RGG

Absof***inglutely! I am too often wrong, but I am fairly certain that is correct melonman.

3/25/2011 9:37:06 AM

El Paso TX.

@TD -- But will the Mother's Womb (the Melon) get larger or smaller due to the number of seeds or size of the resulting seeds that the male successfully pollinates due to having more productive genetics ? (Per your analogy -- would your wife gain more weight during the pregnancy if she were having twins or triplets instead of just a single child ??) So while the genetics of the Male will not directly effect the melon are there some cases where it might actually indirectly cause the melon to be larger ?)

3/25/2011 9:51:52 AM

Linden, Mi.,

Tennessee Dreamer -- YES YES That is the way I would have said it.

3/25/2011 10:09:48 AM

Corryton, TN

I wouldn't think a male could make it any larger, only smaller (in theory). The same number of seeds are available for pollination no matter how many boyfriends mama has. That's why we pick the big girls.

3/25/2011 11:21:10 AM

Sevierville,tn

lol

3/25/2011 12:22:53 PM

Watervalley Ms

THANKS for the help TD, send me email at Jerryminister@yahoo.com will talk more about the melons by the way i like your pics on the growers diary. Thanks Jerry

3/25/2011 12:25:52 PM

Watervalley Ms

I am often wrong to, but sometimes i think i am right but usually still wrong. ITS hapens alot, thanks Jerry.

3/25/2011 12:51:54 PM

sevierville, Tn

I'll agree with what JD said as a qualifier, if the melon didn't get pollinated well. that could result in the melon not getting as large or as well formed as it might have otherwise been. That said, the world record pumpkin had VERY low seed count, so thats something else to consider.

3/25/2011 1:21:25 PM

formerly RGG

JD, a melon will swell up without any seeds at all. Think about the "seedless" melons they sell in the grocery store. And the size of a woman's pregnancy is more determined by how much she has to eat rather than by genetics. True, a woman's womb may stretch more to accomodate a large pregnancy but it is just stretched and will return to normal size after a few weeks. The amount and size of the seeds in a melon would have little or no impact on melon size. It is the nutrition the melon is getting that determines how much weight it gains.

3/25/2011 1:44:09 PM

sevierville, Tn

The seedless are genetically steril, so thats not a good example. If the melon is NOT pollinated, it won't develop, or develope poorly if poorly pollinated.

3/25/2011 1:50:56 PM

formerly RGG

That is very true Chris.It just that seed size or number has little ability to affect the overall weight of a melon.

3/25/2011 2:44:08 PM

sevierville, Tn

Dennis, i agree that seed size or number has little direct weight. I was refering to the melon developing because of the presents of or lack thereof seeds.

3/25/2011 2:54:32 PM

El Paso TX.

More what I meant was say if the male that you use to pollinate is partially sterile and only say half of the seeds actually develop would that effect the final weight of the melon vs. using a male that was more fertile and fertilized say 90% of the seeds, or do you think the melon would still reach the same weight in either case ?

3/25/2011 5:02:51 PM

Muddy Waters

Hey Kirk, I like yours Best!LMBO

3/25/2011 5:35:06 PM

Muddy Waters

I cant stop laughing Kirk!! Rich real Rich!!!

3/25/2011 6:04:55 PM

formerly RGG

Sure Chris, I understand that.

3/25/2011 6:04:55 PM

formerly RGG

I do not believe a low seed count would have a lot of effect. As Chris stated his world record had a very low seed count and still made the world record & I know that some of the giant pumpkins have a low seed count and still manage to get huge. That said, I don't think there is any way to test the effect of a low seed count so nothing can be proven one way or the other.

3/25/2011 6:10:17 PM

Marshall, MI

Mr dreamer: You gave the 35 kent as an example that size makes no difference that the genetics would be the same.Iagree the kent 35 should be a good cross. but you have to take in to account if the melon is mature or still growing. If its mature and the only melon on the plant .
Ihave to assume theres not awhole lot of genetics here reguardless of mama and papa. Icould be wrong. Maby another blossom on the plant would have produced aworld record. But i dont know that... so iwouldnt waste my time trying to cross it into another melon.

3/25/2011 6:49:01 PM

formerly RGG

Mr Edwards, I completely agree with you. And I have to agree with you that the same plant is capable of producing totally different melons. For example I have heard of plants that have produced both a short fat melon and a long melon. It has a lot to do with the females you select to pollinate as we know each one is different.

3/25/2011 8:31:57 PM

formerly RGG

I remember an argument err... discussion we had on this forum last year. I was contending that there would be absolutely no apparent changes in any part of the plant or fruit this year that was caused by the pollen donor. David Cantrell (Brotherdave) quickly set me straight on this. He is a awesome professional grower of peaches, watermelons, muscadines & lots of other goodies and has to know what he is talking about. He cited the crossing of corn. If corn of different colors is crossed then the crossing will be readily apparent in this years seeds as they (the offspring) will exhibit the colors of both parents.Thanks again Dave for setting me straight.

3/25/2011 8:39:29 PM

formerly RGG

And Bill, I also think that particular melon (the Kent 35) would have never reached a good size because it was set too late in the season. But given ample time and the right growing conditions that I know Chris is able to provide I am sure it would have reached giant size. And of course you are right that if the genetics appear good but the melon is a lot smaller than the others a particular grower has produced then it is probably not going to yield a seed worth taking a chance on.

3/25/2011 8:46:09 PM

Lexington,IN

My 232, grown in 2000, was grown close to moon and stars melon plants.(I didn't know any better at the time) And was a open pollinated melon. I have had someone tell me they got moon and stars plant from the seeds and CC plants. Was also grown in Canada with no showing of the M & S genes. I don't know what the ratio was or how many seeds were started. Therefore I don't think the male pollen had anything to do with fruit size. I've always been told that crossing has no effect on the fruit before you, only the seeds. Like the corn example above. We grow melons for the fruit, we grown corn to eat the seeds which are effected by the cross...My $2 worth anyway...

3/25/2011 9:26:10 PM

Rome Ga

The melon is affected to certain degree the same year. if you cross a CC with a crimson sweet you will see large decrease in melon size. you want know until the next year if the offspring or proven or not.

3/25/2011 9:44:43 PM

Muddy Waters

2$ dwight?? I only gave my 2 cents

3/25/2011 9:47:35 PM

formerly RGG

I am glad you have everything figured out beeman! :)

3/25/2011 10:00:15 PM

formerly RGG

Sometimes I just want to step into a soundproof room and scream for a minute or two.LOL

3/25/2011 10:02:30 PM

Muddy Waters

I hear what you all are saying,and I agree 90%.I still think It might be possilble that the male pollinator could have like a Vigor effect on fruit growth.I cant prove it but I believe it,I also believe in God,but cant prove it.Okay TD you can scream like a girl now.I have ear plugs!!lol

3/25/2011 10:16:04 PM

formerly RGG

Sometimes this forum is almost as much fun as being in the patch. :)

3/25/2011 10:36:52 PM

formerly RGG

Mark,I think Dewight is accounting for inflation. $2 is worth today about what 2 cents was worth when I was a kid.I think the saying should be updated.LOL

3/26/2011 12:17:25 AM

Southeast Texas

lol.frank i had them owls shit on me in the punkin patch...dammit,lol...late in the evening

3/26/2011 1:44:39 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Not sure if I understand corn in this equation...as corn is the fruit (or veggie!!! the part you eat) & the seeds??? Peace, Wayne

3/26/2011 2:35:35 AM

Muddy Waters

Corn is rare the fruit is the seed!

3/26/2011 6:17:39 AM

Muddy Waters

I had a Nanny with some nice Hooters!!!

3/26/2011 6:19:56 AM

Marshall, MI

Itt tookone whole day for mr dreamer to agree with me on something. Is this some kind of (record?) Ha Ha.
Just kidding mr dreamer. I had fun.

3/26/2011 8:05:03 AM

Bethlehem CT

This post has been a lot of fun to read, I was really cracking up after Kirk's comment about his ex-wife.

3/26/2011 8:25:32 AM

Lexington,IN

Yeah, $2 is the new adjusted rate Mark...

3/26/2011 9:53:24 AM

formerly RGG

Mr Edwards,did you get the email I sent you?

3/26/2011 12:06:54 PM

Southeast Texas

dont listen to JD he anint never grew nothing...he cant beat my 605...dammit

3/26/2011 4:04:04 PM

Marshall, MI

Yes I did mr dreamer. Sent one back to you yesterday but
you must not have got it. Just sent another .e mail me
back if you get it or you dont .So Iwill know if im doing
something wrong. thanks

3/26/2011 6:18:09 PM

formerly RGG

Mr Edwards,I am very sorry if you might think I am hypercritical of you. I think you are certainly one of the best growers in the country. Growing ability comes from lots of knowledge and experience. I have nothing but tremendous respect for you sir.If you were just referring to your computer abilities then think nothing of that. You are inexperienced in that realm and all of us who are inexperienced make our share of mistakes.You do not need another email.If you still have the one I sent then just reply to the address it came from. If you do not then please email me at coolvol@comcast.net.

3/26/2011 7:28:20 PM

formerly RGG

Mr Edwards, I just checked my email and have indeed received your reply on the second attempt. I think you are a fast learner.Thank you very much for the help you have been to me.I hope I am able to sometime return the favor.

3/26/2011 7:30:31 PM

Rome Ga

TD I dont have it all figured out. If I did i would have already grown a world record. Not saying that you are wrong on what you have posted. I just think that the male has influance on the melon the same year to a certain degree. And it has more on its offspring the next year. This has been a good post.

3/26/2011 7:47:02 PM

Muddy Waters

Yes we shouldnt be afraid of a little debating,No ones gonna melt if they get there feelings hurt!If we all agreed on everything there would be no purpose for a voting Booth.

3/26/2011 8:04:42 PM

formerly RGG

I agree Mark. Debate is healthy as long as we remain calm and civil.I am sorry beeman. Guess it just hit me the wrong way.I was passionately trying to prove my point and you were not going for it.Of course everyone is welcome to their opinion and sometimes we just have to agree to disagree.And if you think about it, it really doesn't matter whether seeds or lack of same effect melon weights or not since there is little or nothing we can do about how many seeds are in a melon.And if melon size is affected by pollen then most of us are doing controlled crosses anyway and so good pollen should then only effect melon size in a positive way if indeed it does have an effect. :)

3/26/2011 8:21:15 PM

Marshall, MI

What agreat debate we have had. Now back to the original
subject. The270 has been polinated by the 157 bright. and you plant it the following year. will the offspring
be bigger if the 157 polinator had produced a 350# instead of a190# or would there be no difference at all.????
What do you growers think??

3/26/2011 10:35:31 PM

El Paso TX.

@Paul F --- OUCH -- LOL - Give me a couple years to get the soil adjusted and I'll see if I can get close to that 605 - I just can't believe that 605 is the most you can get one to grow in all the years you've been trying ! -- Thought everything was bigger in TEXAS but I guess not.

I was happy with the 320 I got last year (was only expecting to get around 100 or so since the soil was in pretty bad shape and I didn't use any shade cloth or wind break) Should be able to improve on that this year and once I get the soil built up a bit more should be able to give you a bit of competition.

3/26/2011 10:41:28 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Bill, JMHO...I think, no difference, the genetics of the pollinator was already established, the dna of the pollen would not change, cause the fruit on that plant grew bigger!!! That being said, if Mr. Bright had two plants...one grew 190, and one grew 350...(both from the same 157 seeds), and pollinated w/plant 350 instead of w/plant 190, then YES. Peace, Wayne

3/26/2011 11:36:25 PM

Watervalley Ms

I think there is a change the next year because of the male pollinator, but because of hidden traits or traits skiping a year the 190 could be a better cross for the first year. In the long run, i think the 350# would be the better cross every time.

3/27/2011 12:35:40 AM

Muddy Waters

Yes I think the potential is there,genectics being the same
the bigger fruit evidently carried heavier traits,thicker rind etc.I think the 350 would be the better brother seed.Butt! heres the Big Butt!!For you guys that like BiGG BBUTTS!lol The seeds are like snow flakes every one is different,there are silver bullets!If its open pollinated its a crap shoot all the way.Heres a new Question guys,but answer Bills first please,If I bag & pollinate my fruit,can a bee come later like 10 minutes later & add pollen to the deal or when does the window close.Dont forget stay on Bills Question first!FOOCCUUSSS!!!lol

3/27/2011 6:19:32 AM

Corryton, TN

I agree with Wayne. This is assuming that both 157 plants had equal care. Start time, female selection, relative harvest date, etc.

HHG, KEEP IT COVERED AFTER POLLINATION FOR 24 HRS or it will be open pollinated. I don't know exactly how many hours the bedroom door stays open but it's open at least all morning.

3/27/2011 8:12:27 AM

formerly RGG

Very well stated Mark.

3/27/2011 8:53:50 AM

Rome Ga

Yes HHH they can come behind you and still get some pollen on certain blooms. I would wait at least 24 hrs.before i uncovered.

3/27/2011 9:12:44 AM

Muddy Waters

Thanks,Never really been that precise with melons,Chris has convinced me we need to be.Thanks for the tips

3/27/2011 11:59:20 AM

Marshall, MI

Holly dog -do-do-Batman


G W G Now has 83 Members

3/27/2011 5:49:26 PM

Rochester, Minnesota

I have to say that this conversation was too long, so I really didn't read it, but as for as the effect of the pollinator on the fruit of the same year, it would have none. Only in the case of seed that you eat does the pollinator have an effect. The classic case is sweet corn.

Sorry if that has already been covered.

3/28/2011 11:15:53 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Wholly, Batman!!! if I hear anything near mid 90's, I will be a sending $10 to enter my mom!!!! (hopin to hear 3 digits...100 ya know?) Peace, Wayne
PS... & if it stalls at 99 I will send another $10 for TUG!!! PS...Go Wildcats!!! Thanks, Bill!!!! LOL Peace, Wayne

3/28/2011 6:06:28 PM

Bowdon, GA

I think Dwight's responds helps answer the question the moon and stars did not likely reduce the size of his 232.
I think hand pollination may help the shape of the fruit which might indirectly effect the out come. Good debate. You know how to pickem Mr. Edwards.

3/28/2011 7:58:38 PM

Bowdon, GA

Does anyone know if Mr. Mudd's Hootin Nanny eggs were furry or not?

3/28/2011 8:00:48 PM

formerly RGG

I heard those Hootin' Nanny eggs were multi colored, different shapes and sizes and yes I think it was said that one or two of them were furry. LOL

3/28/2011 8:26:16 PM

A lot of the Hootin Nanny eggs looked a lot like Cuckleburrs so I have been selling them to some folks as
Porcupine eggs.

3/29/2011 8:50:45 AM