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Vancouver, White Rock, Canada

Was just wondering if anyone knows or can speculate what percentage of a pumpkins' resources are absorbed through the roots at the stump vs the tap roots down the vine. The reason I'm asking is that in my patch, I have decided to focus most of my soil amendments, etc in the area around where I intend to plant my seeds (about an 8' X 8' area) as opposed to spreading everything out throughout the entire patch.

12/8/2004 4:54:20 PM

Saegertown Pa.

Lawman I lost my stump and four side vines after the stump on my 998 when it was 200 lB. The tap roots on the rest of the vines gave me 798 LB

12/8/2004 5:03:51 PM

Vancouver, White Rock, Canada

I've heard of others who have lost their stumps to rot or whatever, and have had similiar results to yours, which throws my theory out the window, but do you think this was the pumpkin compensating for the loss of the stump, or would this amount of growth have occurred anyways?

12/8/2004 5:25:51 PM

Eau Claire, WI

Even the stump roots will have grown far beyond your 4 foot radius (8ft x 8ft area) within a very short time (maybe even 2-3 weeks). They will eventually reach out 15-20ft or more from the planting are.

I would definitely not focus my attention on only a 4 ft radius.

12/8/2004 6:12:59 PM

Garden

I think it was Pumpkinpal2 that grew his on some ground barrier, so no tap roots. Just stump. Eric??

12/8/2004 6:24:31 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

James, the 310 Marining that my friend Leslie grew had no tap roots at all as half the plant was over concrete and the other half cascaded over an 8 foot rock wall. It can be done but will limit the outcome of the fruit.

12/8/2004 6:34:30 PM

Cologne / Germany

As far as I remember pap did nearly 1000 lbs without a stump this year:
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=83800
Watch for the plant and keep it in good condition everywhere around so you have a good chance to go on even if some parts are lost...IMHO.

12/8/2004 6:49:18 PM

Taber, Alberta

Hey James, besides the pit you dig when you plant, I'd beef up your entire area. When I dug up my garden this year,my roots this year extended at a right angle from the stump over 9 feet until they hit the edge of the garden, then went under the grass. I also had other roots from the stump extend almost 20 feet parallel to the main to the edge of the garden. They sure grow fast.
Alan

12/8/2004 8:12:35 PM

Cologne / Germany

When I pulled my plants in October I never looked at anything longer than 16 inch concerning roots. Makes sense because the plant has a 15-16 inch architecture (main/secondaries relations) above the soil so the same will go down into the soil. Exactly the same was for zuccini, cucumber - at least all fruits that tend to develop vines.
Are you sure all the roots you find in the soil are pumpkin roots? 20 feet from the stump? I still can´t believe all the amazing root stories:-)

12/8/2004 8:28:53 PM

New Hampshire

Daletas 1385 lost the stump to rot in mid-august.

12/8/2004 8:41:48 PM

Taber, Alberta

I didn't get a picture of my longest roots, but in my diary there's a pic of an 8 footer or so. My soil was still very loose so I could follow the largest vines from the stump as I dug up my garden on Sept 20th. Yup, I'm sure they're pumpkin roots, they were very soft and the only thing grown around the pumpkins (other than the weeds) was the grass.

12/8/2004 11:05:33 PM

[email protected]

I'm going to break with tradition & confuse the thread with common nomenclature. LOL

The tap root is the long area of roots below the basal crown (stump sic). When we dig up the crown, the longest roots that we find hanging off it are "primary roots". These branch into finer secondary, tertiarty & quartenary roots getting ever finer as they go. The very finest feeder roots are invisible to the naked eye. When we did up the "stump", all we ever see are the primary tap roots. No matter how hard we try, secondary & finer roots are ripped off & remain in the soil.

Roots that are put down at nodes along the vine are called "adventitous" roots. These are critical to growing a fruit to it's maximum potential.

We have learned a fruit will continue to grow if either Primary Tap or Adventitous roots are lost or limited. But every effort to keep them all in one working piece is worth while.

12/9/2004 8:51:02 AM

Cologne / Germany

I agree with you Steve and I think it´s nearly impossible to have the best possible soil conditions at the same time at every place in your patch.
I tend to follow the idea of some sort of raised vine beds next season. Better soil control, watering issues, keeping it warmer, etc. All my neighbours do it with their veggies and that "raised stuff" always look much bigger and better.

12/9/2004 9:46:48 AM

Vancouver, White Rock, Canada

Thanks for all of your replies, definately something to think about. Do you think that the plants that grew monsters without "basal crown" roots grew better "adventitious" root systems to compensate for the loss of the stump (sorry, basal crown), or were the adventitious root systems enough to sustain the fruit as they were?

12/9/2004 1:49:58 PM

Long Island,New York

I dont care what steve says...mine has a stump. It has a trunk, and big roots....off the big roots are smaller roots, and still further are smallerer roots. The roots I don't see don't exist. The roots at the leaf stalks are not adventitous roots....they are advantageous roots. As for which you need...roots are good, more roots are gooder. So there !.............G

12/9/2004 4:27:42 PM

Ga.

LOL G...gooder? Dont ya mean better?
J

12/9/2004 4:42:41 PM

Joliet, IL

i love the intential gooder. lol. its funner to say
gooder instead of better. and saying funner instead
of more fun is the bestest.

12/9/2004 6:31:41 PM

Joliet, IL

that attempt at humor in that last post i made might be
lost in translation to our non-english speaking friends.

and for our english speaking friends...ya ya i know...
you wish that all of my attempts at humor were lost
in translation from my brain to my fingertips before
they hit the keyboard....like this dumb post for example.

12/9/2004 6:41:59 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Lawman Great Thread... Keep it comin guys...Auction tonight leaves little time for a lengthy post. My three belief's on roots are reduced stress, unsuberization of the roots and oxygenation of the roots. These three things lead more of the heavy hitters to the promissed land of pumpkin dreams.

12/9/2004 7:47:16 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

James, looks like you'd better call me and we can go rent you a rototiller and till up that grass you grew over last year and bring in as many yards of manure and compost you need so that you can take advantage of all the extra root systems that will pop out of everywhere. You ain't gonna chase or catch the North Shore Boyz with an 8' X 8' slab of soil. You're wife won't mind and if she does she'll get over it.

Glenn

12/9/2004 8:19:30 PM

Abbotsford, B.C

Don't forget though everybody, right at the stump the roots go down about three feet or so, depending on soil type, I would suppose, and everywhere else they seem to stay within the top six inches of the soil. And, when seedlings are starting, they need the nourishment coming from the immediate area, too. So I would make the soil in the area of the stump just a bit better than everywhere else. This, for instance, could be where you put the bat guano.

Cameron

12/9/2004 9:09:14 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

How do you promote good root growth at the leaf nodes? Is there any special techniques used to promote better and more aggressive roots at the leaf nodes? Any tips or new ideas in this topic?

12/9/2004 9:52:45 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Phil, I THINK THE ANSWER COULD BE WELL TIMED DESIGNER AGP PGR'S.

12/9/2004 10:47:22 PM

Taber, Alberta

Phil, I put Myke's growth supplement (mycorizzial fungi) at each leaf node when I bury them. When I dug my vines out this year, the roots were much more developed than last, when I didn't do it. My 2 cents.
Alan

12/10/2004 12:10:30 AM

Vancouver, White Rock, Canada

Hey, Glenn, I ain't worried about the north shore boyz... I plan on out growing you guys with my 8' X 8' slab of "pimped out" soil this coming year... bring it on!!

12/10/2004 12:28:12 AM

Garden

Here in the West, I was to understand that burying the vines was not necessary being that we dont have svb, but I noticed that at the nodes, a root tries to form on top of the vine at the leaf junctions. I now believe that there is more to benefit from burying. Something I WILL do this time around. I am confident I will reach the 2000 lb. mark next year....plus or minus 3/4 ton

12/10/2004 12:52:47 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Roots and suberization. The process of suberized roots is the affect of a cork like substance that builds up on the surface of elder roots to insulate them from the world around them. The build up of the suberin layer is natural occurance that is a response to a number of factors. Stress increases this build up which gradually begins the plants slow decline into senesence. Stress can be caused by any number of things, cold and drought are two primary ones we are most concerned with. Hormones signal the suberin to action which in turn leads to a reduction in the roots ability to absorb Calcium and other nutrients. The plant falls into this self imposed shut down to protect the maturing fruit and its procreating seeds inside.

Lawmans question and Quinns response are what we can see and the result of a very complex system of hormone signals. Roots that are severed from the crown area are younger and possiblely contain less suberin. Therefore these junior roots are more adaptable to the sudden loss of thier friends. They may respond much quicker to auxin hormones signaling and compensating for the sudden loss. This may result in a root growth spurt that is demanded by the current fruit factory on the vine.

Lawman I don't like pits. I believe they can provide too many stress factors. Cold and water logged roots being the top contenders here. It may be better to work all of your soil area into gradual raised mounds rich in porous materials to increase Oxygen, Water and nutrient uptake by your young roots...

12/10/2004 7:36:25 AM

Cologne / Germany

It´s true that growing orange pumpkins from good seeds is fun.
It´s truer that growing oranger pumpkins from gooder seeds is funner.
It´s truest that growing orangest pumpkins from goodest seeds is funnest.
Did I get that right?

12/10/2004 9:13:57 AM

[email protected]

Well done floh!!! You too have butchered the English language in the goodest way possible! Much gooder than I could German.

As Russ points out, the adventitous that form at nodes do protect themselves from the hostilities in the above ground world. That corky lignified bark-like area is probably on grown when the plant senses the need. To do so requires energy that might be spent doing other things like growing fruit. Thus when growing is properly draining soil, burying nodes probably does help maximize growth by minimizing wasted energy output by the plant.

Do tap roots grow in response to a lack of aventitious roots & vice versa? I can't think of any peer reviewed studies to look up or quote. But in casual observations here of "carvers grown on intentionally severed secondaries", I'd have to say "yes".

Has anyone else ever observed this?

12/10/2004 1:05:08 PM

Long Island,New York

All you have to do is bury a clone plant.....sever all the "adventageous" roots but the first good set, and you'll see the "tap" roots develope from those first set of leafnode roots.

12/10/2004 4:10:30 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

James, looks like you have your answer....call that trucking company with your compost/manure delivery and I'll come over with the rototiller and a case of beer.

12/11/2004 11:44:54 AM

Joliet, IL

floh,
you got it down bro
lol
shazzy

12/11/2004 1:04:24 PM

Cologne / Germany

I find the 4th dimension even better - good, gooder, gooderer, gooderest...LOL

12/11/2004 1:52:13 PM

Vancouver, White Rock, Canada

Glenn, you better bring more than a case of beer if my wife sees a dumptruck load of manure in my backyard. You got room in your patch for a tent so I can have a place to live?

12/11/2004 5:54:27 PM

Fremont, California

wow u guys are the funnerest. this is the gooderest post on the whole site!! so u guys r the bestest.



ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-dashbarr

12/11/2004 10:25:20 PM