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Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

I thought this topic might get a few good answers if posted in here, since so many growers have their thinking caps on this time of the year. Hope that is ok with you Frank.. I'm curious too! My 303 {825 X 940} threw white, as did it's offspring....
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Anybody know: what's the oldest known instance of white seeds in an AG? Just wondering where that trait came from. I opened up a blue hubbard squash today and found snow white seeds. hmmm....

Frank
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I've often thought and have been told by a few older growers that the white is a squash trait. Tom Beachy will jump in here and disagree, won't you Tom? I do have a lot of white seeds with heavy squash genes in the backgrounds. Maybe G will spot this post and tell us things he has observed. Nic, are you lurking somewhere too? What about the Hitman? Garrell? Troy? Len S? Nesbitt? Armstrong? Needham?Wolf? Carlson? Little Kyle {LOL}? Pukos? Hebb, Kennedy, and everyone else I should be adding? Here is a good link to visit on the subject:

http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/pk709.htm

11/15/2004 12:28:34 AM

[email protected]

I am unsure of the white seed trait and where it came from, but I have found seed production is not always white brings white. We always hear that the male pollen does not have any effect until the following years fruit to bring in characteristics, if so, then why did my 898 Knauss fruit (Rockwell 751) throw tan seeds? The Knauss 898 seed stock is a white seed, I guess my observation here would be that white seed (898) threw tan, anyone else have white seed not throw white? There is a lot of 898 growers out there, what did they grow for you?

Quickly observing some of the 898 offspring stock I have,

1074 Beachemin (tan)
753 Pappas (tan)
1104.5 Hester (tan)
1180 Daletas (tan)

Yes, while these seeds are tan, they are very pale, but yet some color. The 898 Knauss was a thin coated, all white seed that could have been figured as immature to the untrained eye.

11/15/2004 6:47:13 AM

Knopp, Germany

I did some on-line research (google) and found that hull-less or naked-seeded curcubita-pepo are quite common. Apparently this mutation was developed for the processing of pumpkin seed oil and seeds for eating. I could not find anywhere information on hull-less seeded curcubita-maxima.

I did find one quote that was interesting;
"Gardeners growing naked-seeded varieties do not need to worry about isolating these plants from other squash or pumpkins to prevent cross-pollinating. Although crosses will occur, the seed will not have a tough seed coat since it is formed from maternal tissue. Of course, such crossed seed should not be saved for planting, as the next generation will result in seed with regular seed coats"

owen

11/15/2004 7:31:06 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Two small white seeds have thrown large tan for me,427 Wolf(846 remake)and 871 Johnson (735 Pukos x self & 846)the latter was self pollinated but I would be hard pressed to find two more differant looking seeds from my collection.

I have a few crosses with 1007 Brown genetics they are all tan.

11/15/2004 8:49:00 AM

Western NY

i'll take a stab at this. rocky - the 898's go tan, regardless of the pollinator (i'm assuming, as i haven't looked at all the offspring seeds) because of the 1048 plant that was used to pollinate the 1007 plant. 1048's are huge tan seeds. anyway, i think it's a pretty recessive thing. personally, i like the white seeds a little better. for the first few years, i had thought all squash seeds were tan until i got some white ones from Nic. I've only had one of my squash throw white seeds, but i think that's mainly because most of my squash have been out of te same line.

you should look at that quot Owen found very carefully. the point you must understand is that they are apparently focusing on eating those seeds. if you have seeds that are going to throw white, don't worry about the bees, because they can't change that fact. BUT, watch out for the next generation.

11/15/2004 8:57:57 AM

Hudsonville, Michigan ([email protected])

Marc:
Thanks for that link. A good read on the subject. So then 567 Mombert 92 appears to be the earliest recorded instance of white seeds from an AG. Anyone have an instance earlier than that? If not, then I would have to presume the trait came from Helmut Laemmle's patch. I believe his were all open pollinated and I would presume something other than AG was crossed in there somewhere, resulting in the supposed 'hybrid vigor' that is often associated with the 567...also the long sloping shape & dark orange color often seen from 567 offspring...
Frank

11/15/2004 11:49:02 AM

Indiana

616 Holland was a white seed in 1991, and the 574 Mitchell Squash was a white seed back in the late 1980's. I got some Richard Wright seeds that are white as well from the 1980's. The 609 was a tan seed.

Tom

11/15/2004 1:04:34 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan ([email protected])

Well there goes that theory. Tom, any idea the origin of those Wright seeds? Do they go back to Howard Dill?
Frank

11/15/2004 2:12:57 PM

ENGLAND

The Seeds in my 1996 662 (Zehr 968 X Mombert 567.5) were all white. The Seeds in my 1996 463 (Mombert 567.5 X Zehr 968) were all tan.

11/15/2004 3:51:04 PM

New York

It was considered quite rare to get white seed from an orange one in the 80's. I remember seeing a few with Gancarz seed from 83/84. They were not considered to be as good if not brown
Green squash on the other hand were almost 100% white. Early green seeds I can think of were Gancarz, Waterman,Mitchell,Neily,Fulp...all white as I can remember. I remember how strange it seemed to see orange offspring from my white 589 squash seeds from '89. That's the first example I can think of where seed color didn't matter much...before that... brown seed were orange, and white seed were green.

11/15/2004 5:03:31 PM

Eugene, OR

I'm just a lowly rookie but the seeds from the pumpkin I grew on the 1230 Daletas this year were tan while the 1230 seed itself was as white as can be. Nice orange offspring from a white seed.

The pollinator of the pumpkin grown on the 1230, the 801 Black, was a dark tan seed. Perhaps that's why the seeds came out tan? Anyone ever get white seeds from a tan X tan cross? That would clearly show seed color is a recessive gene.

Interesting topic!

11/15/2004 5:20:39 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

At least in AGs, I've always thought that the white seed was
simply a seed that lacks the harder protective coating (tan).

Also, I thought I heard sometime that someone had both white
and tan come from the same pumpkin...

11/15/2004 6:15:43 PM

Ohio

My 374 Seeds are white,and my pumpkin was a Bright Orange (neon) My 374 came from the 940 L. Wentzell(900 Wentzell x 875 Dill)Im trying to figure where the white seeds came from and the orange color,Mostly every Wentzell Pumpkin I have seen have been light color.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=29087

11/15/2004 6:55:07 PM

Long Island,New York

Lets see...1991Tip Ruffner seeds are tan,704McGowans are tan,519Black91 are white(616x755),got some Griffin seeds that are tan.....looks like white/tan doesn't make a diff from this vantage point.

11/15/2004 7:54:08 PM

Deer Park WA

Our 810 Dill was a white seed, the plant vines were solid dark (almost black) fruit was very orange. 895 Hester* seed was dark brown, selfed it last year (Gadberry 834*) seeds were an erie white/pale green, selfed the 834* and grew the 823* its seeds were snow white. The other 834* in the patch was pollinated with the Gadberry 596 (pumpkin) and the seeds inside were a light tan, unfortunatly I can't gaurentee the 834* X 596 as the dang string on the flower came off and a bee was inside at time of pollination. I think (IMHO)that white seeds originated with some type of green squash....

11/15/2004 8:20:02 PM

Long Island,New York

my 834 x self is tan

11/15/2004 8:39:08 PM

Indiana

Edwards,
The Wright seeds go back to Gancarz as Alan Nesbitt was saying.

Tom

PS that 589 Nesbitt seed Alan was talking about is still the most vigorous plant I have ever had......

11/16/2004 12:50:48 AM

Colo.Spgs.CO. Pikes Peak Chapter @ [email protected]

I grew the 1245 Bailey (790 Daletas x self) in 2003 which were big white seeds, and I also grew the 837 Larue in 2003 also which is the same cross as the 790 Daletas (879 Holland x 801 Stelts)which had small tan seeds. The resulting seeds out of my 749lb. 2003 cross ( 1245 x 837 ) were small and white seeds, and the pumpkin was very orange.......JK....

11/16/2004 3:17:51 AM

New York

Richard Wright was a very successful grower in the 80's. The World Record was darn near his in '86 had his 594 pumpkin not gone down in early September...at the time of weighing it was the 2nd biggest ever. He ended up #4 in the world with another at 546.
In '87 he had another monster that went extremely light at 480 pounds at the weigh-off. That was our first experience with the idea that they can go very light based on the Wiberg weight estimation chart.
Those NJ guy's really remind me of the NH group of today. They were a close group that competed against each other for the pure joy of seeing how big they can get. They all shared idea's and seeds...and as a result were the big force in the 80's.
Based on memory, the Gancarz seed were probably the first to get "mixed up" in terms of the so called tan/orange and white/green rule. There was no controlled pollination and green was grown with orange in maybe a 5 acre field...and both were BIG for their time at the weigh-offs....green and orange ones actually looked alike aside from the obvious color. They wanted big orange and green..it didn't really matter (early on) what plants grew them.

11/16/2004 6:43:25 AM

Hudsonville, Michigan ([email protected])

Alan: Thanks for your perspective on this. As a history/genealogy buff, I love such discussions. Anyway, Alan/Tom/anyone: where did the Gancarz brothers get their seeds? From Howard? Or were they growing cucurbit maxima from other sources? And, do you suppose the white seeds come from the Hungarian Mammoth side then, as opposed to the Goderich giant side of the gene pool?

11/16/2004 10:40:04 AM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

I talk to Ed a few times a year...trying to get some of the clues to the uncharted origins of the Big Pumpkins/ Squash {which are both the same except for color}. Each time I find a little bit more information and new clues. Ed grew these things like a farmer, not as a mad scientist gardener. He still to this day does not vine prune or bury anything {although I have made progress convincing him to try the technique on a couple plants perhaps...LMAO}. Howard Dill was doing the selective breeding techniques with the Canadian genetics.

Ed's entire seed stock{green/white/ orange} all came from USA based fruits he drove to hell and back to get in the 60's & 70's. He was a "pumpkin treasure hunter", so to speak. He got news from others across the mid west/ central states who would tell him where to find the largest fruits. He would drive for hours or days, like an antique hunter would do to get the best antiques.

He grew the best of the best seeds from all the ones he collected over time. This seems to have created multigenerational and criss crossed genetics, all open pollinated. Many of the fruits seemed to have lazy bees around, as he said lots of plants exhibited exact same traits as its mother. More than often though, he ended up with hybrid vigorous plants.

Not all the hybrid vigor was expressed in larger fruits. Sometimes it would be expressed by huge leaves, huge vines/ yellow or green {or mixed} vines/ long big mammoth fruit stems/ thick wall fruits/ long fruits/ tractor wheel fruits/ huge seeds/white seeds/ tan seeds/ quick and fast growth rates... and the exact opposite behaviors as well.

11/16/2004 9:21:10 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Everything growers see in todays genetics have been grown out with focus mainly on fruit size or weight. Not many seed stocks today aren't related somehow to each other. Ed's early seed quests brought in lots of different genetic characteristics, but nothing was isolated and controlled unless it happened by chance.

Sometime in the 80's Dills stuff finally made it down into Ed's world, and those two unique and different strains began to cross together. The result crossing the two genetics quickly increased fruit weights and sizes almost overnight. Todays genetics are by products of those 1980's crosses.

Ed didn't grow in 2004 due to family related events. It was the first time in many decades his patch went empty. I have a great respect for him and for all he contributed to pumpkin genetics. Everyone knows about Howards accomplishments and impact on todays genes.All the things he has done deserves to be recognized and respected. Too often though, Ed's role seems to be overlooked and unrecognized. Many growers seem to have no idea who he even is, just that they heard that name before somewhere. If you
ever really want to hear his very interesting stories, I suggest you take the time to call him up. He tells it like it is... no B.S. from him!!! I must warn that he is very old school, and if your smart, you'll let him do most of the talking. You will find out a grip of stuff you'd never know. It sounds like he doesn't get many calls these days, which is surprising. I was initially afraid to call because I figured he had growers all over calling him often.

What Ed cannot even answer, is where those plants evolved from which Ed hunted down. Were they brought down into the USA from Canada and are related, or did they evolve here? The answer to the white seed origin lies somewhere in that unknown void.....

11/16/2004 9:21:36 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

The following info is taken from a scientific paper written by Harry S.Paris of the Agricultural Resarch Organization in Israel entitled The cucurbit legacy of Antoine Nicolas Duchesne (1747-1827).

He says that the French botanist was the first to conduct an in depth study of the genus Cucurbita.This study was based on the results of cross pollinations between 97 different forms and was conducted from 1768-1774.He made 258 drawings most of them life like watercolours and today they are in a museum in Paris.
He gave us the C.Maxima name and describes two types one having a Brownish Orange exterior with a dense netting similar to netted forms of melons with thick Orange flesh and White seeds the other has Blue-Gray-Green rind and Yellow Orange flesh.These two would have been cross pollinated drawings made of the offspring and possibly the next generation again.So it was a Frenchman that first crossed Orange with Green.

258 drawings each measuring 2ft by 18 ins.must be an awesome sight I will certainly try and get to see them.Black and White photographs of approximately half the plates are kept at the Bailey Hortorium.Ithaca,New York.

11/21/2004 3:07:26 PM