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Deer Park, WI

Lets keep the momentum rolling. In Carlson's post there were a lot of questions regarding vine pruning, so i figgered it would be nice to start a new thread on the topic.

My thoughts-

I like the comment i read that there's an inverse relationship between plant size and fruit size taking place over the last couple years. Its an amazing trend, with some growers producing 4-digit fruit on 200-400sq feet of space. The brings up the question, could a linear relationship between minimum plant size and maximum fruit size be developed? For instance, in an "ideal" situation (optimal soil conditions, weather, and grower practices), what would be the minimum square footage needed to produce 1000lbs. Could it be done on a 12' x 12' area??? I'd like to know what the largest fruit grown on the smallest area.

Regarding pruning, one could argue that having maximum plant size, whether it be 400, 600, or 800 sq ft, at the time of fruit set would be ideal in acheiveing top weights. The question this raises is can a small fruit handle 400-600-800 sq ft of plant behind it without blowing? Obviously Carlson's 1432 and Daletas 1385 are good examples of fruit that could.

Regarding pruning, I do believe the every-other secondary method makes a lot of sense. Come pollination time, you want the plant to shift from vegetative production to fruit production. If the plant has twice as many vine tips to fill out, this may take away energy from the developing fruit. We all know how critical that first couple weeks of growth is to the outcome of the fruit. Decreasing the total number of vine tips pulling juice only makes sense.

11/12/2004 9:51:28 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Joze, Pruning tatics go hand in hand with what we can generally see above ground. Selective, timely Root pruning may be the answer as well. We know from some prior posts that many growers have reported a short term fruit boost from trimming vines completely off after the fruit. I believe this is caused by the old roots not transporting the nutrients(Calcium) back into themselves. When the vines and roots are removed the sinks increase in size as the flow redirects back into the sink. Although, this appears to be a limited short term surge controlled by the removal of a few of the plants aging root systems. It may be prudent to continue trimming sections of older vines off at certain intervals into September to keep the plants roots and vines younger. Could it be that this is what naturally causes the new growth of vines in September as the plant continues to develop new vines and roots to feed itself while older vine sections are dying off. We have even seen in some cases that whole sections of vine and crowns rot away during this time period and a few growers have still reported large fruit. There may be a point at which it becomes more beneficial to remove these elder vine sections completely.

11/12/2004 11:00:34 AM

Halifax, Nova Scotia

There's lots of talk of keeping fruit pruned properly, but what does everybody recomend for pruning? Should the vines simply be cut, where should they be cut, should the ends be buried etc. I didn't grow anything spectacular this year, but I did cut off the mains and sides at one point and buried them, come September the buried sections had rotted and started to work it's way down the vine.

11/12/2004 11:13:18 AM

Indiana

Why you keep stiring the pot Joze!

The ideal way to grow a pumpkin on small sq ft is to treat with horomones like welty and grow straight from seedling to pumpkin have just vine and 2 cotys coming out of the ground, and go straight to fruit set.

Tom

11/12/2004 11:21:00 AM

Key West, FL

"The question this raises is can a small fruit handle 400-600-800 sq ft of plant behind it without blowing? Obviously Carlson's 1432 and Daletas 1385 are good examples of fruit that could. "

I thought the Carlson fruit split?

11/12/2004 11:36:04 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Pruning older vines off the plant during the September could delay the production of the killing ethylene gas production. Ethylene gas has a job to do which cannot be reversed, no matter how hard one tries. That job is to help a plant through the natural process of growth and dying. Some of the most detrimental effects of ethylene are hastened senescence (aging) of all types of plants and accelerated ripening of fruits and vegetables. Senescence is the last phase of plant growth and extends from full maturity to death. Generally speaking, it is the slowing down and eventual end of a plant's metabolism. Limiting it and lenghtening the growth period drives up the heavy hitters fruit gains. Ripening is the phase of a plant just before senescence. It is the time period in which the fruit of the plant changes color and maybe the key point in time at which to begin root and vine pruning. In a natural setting, when a plant is growing in the earth, the ripening process is triggered when the internal ethylene concentration of a plant's fruit is 0.1-1 ppm. However, plants can't distinguish between internal and external sources. Any external ethylene gas that the produce is exposed to will speed up the ripening. To keep produce from ripening too quickly, as much ethylene as possible should be removed from the surrounding air.

11/12/2004 12:08:41 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Where Does Ethylene Gas Come From?
Most wounded plants give off ethylene gas. The gas evolves naturally from plant material that is rotting, ageing or ripening. External stresses on a plant can also stimulate ethylene production. Chemical exposure, drought, flooding and radiation have all been proven to stimulate plants to produce ethylene. Appropriately, this is called Stress Ethylene Production. Cleaning as much ethylene out of the air as possible is the best way to cut down on premature ageing and ripening and prolong the postharvest life of fruits, vegetables and flowers. By removing dead, dying vines and roots you are removing sources of gas production.

11/12/2004 12:08:44 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Where can I find a GOOD link to information about ethylene gas ? This is unknown news to me... I'd love to read up on it if possible...

11/12/2004 12:20:41 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Many of us are already delaying ethylene production by feeding foliar Calcium which keeps the roots and leaves healhty for a longer term thus slowly down the decay of roots, vines and leaves which helps to surpress the gas production. However the clock keeps on ticking for a pumpkin vine. Decaying roots eventually reach a point when even foliar calcium cannot help and less and nutrients are absorbed. At this point removal could prove to extend growth durations. It may be more beneficial to also keep sections of vine growing throughout the season to forestall this effect of ethylene. This can allow for a more natural uptake of nutrients to the plant. Possibly further prolonging your fruits active growing period.

11/12/2004 12:24:11 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Marc, Google it. you'll find many links to veggies and ethylene.

11/12/2004 12:26:39 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Here is a long winded version.
Describes Senescene and ethylene.
Although it deals not with pumpkins.


http://etd.rau.ac.za/theses/available/etd-02122004-091508/restricted/3CHAPTER1.pdf

11/12/2004 1:35:11 PM

Clinton, Iowa

Good Idea Joze..Basically you just can't handle the fact that I started a thread that had 55 replies...You always have been a glory hog!!! LMAO!!
I posted the other thread a little about pruning..my fingers cramped typing that and I ain't doing ti again...for what it's worth it is on the previous thread..
ANywaysYes our 1432 split....Yea keep remindig us!!
and as far as biggest pumpkin grown on smallest plant....I had a flag style p[lant that covered about 120 square feet....the plant had 90 leaves from the stump to the fruit. MAYbe 7 side vines total...each about 8 to 10 feet.no sides after the fruit...about 6 feet of main maybe 8 more leaves there...
the back main was smaller yet ..SAME plant mind you...4 side vines...total 40 leaves....vine terminated at th efruit....Back main had a fruit that measured about 450# (never weighed)
Main vine side of the flag plant had a fruit at 818.8#...were talking about 200 square feet total MAX.
And one one note....one a different plant I lost a stump on.....I removed the stump and the first 2 secondaries each way.One of those secondaries had a fruit that opened the same day I took the stump out....this fruit was about 10 feet out on the 2nd secondary. it had 10 leaves on it...one leaf past the fruit...then it terminated and buried. This had become a free standing plant ,so to speak, do to the removal of the stump. The new plant consisted of a single vine running 10 feet. and totalling 11 leaves. that fruit grew and matured and ended up measuing out to just a hair over 275#. Yea that is th etruth. to this day I am still amazed at just what these plants can do. the growth from that one single little vine stilll impresses th ehell out of me. that was back in 1998 or so. the year of the stumpless wonder incedently the main vine fruit ended up reaching 582#. Just incase you were wondering. the 275 on the single vine impressed me more then the main vine fruit.ANYWays my fingers are cramping again!!

11/12/2004 2:42:40 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Thanks Dan, An amazing story of a stumpless fruit.

11/12/2004 3:24:57 PM

Colo.Spgs.CO. Pikes Peak Chapter @ [email protected]

Everyone also needs to take climate conditions into account and research my climate on the map.....Try growing at 6000 ft. altitude....lol....there is a reason they have the olympic training center here, so they can do laps around everyone else while smoking and not spilling their drink at a lower elevation .....Super seeds may be made by climatizing them to the environment of extreme conditions and supplying the plant / fruit with all of it's needs, given the conditions.... Only time and growing & technics & that luck of the draw will tell ...2005 will be interesting.....

11/13/2004 6:04:06 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Hey don't stop typing...I read all of kahuna's post and read the the PDF...got to admit, was probably lost on me but Marc even brings up the micro climate with CO2..I find it hard to believe that a plant produces so many different gases that effect it's own growth....well as we live and breathe....On the ethylene issue for late season fruit growth Growers who consistently put on 200 lbs in september are you changing plant care towards the end of the season...ferts, feeding and pruning...TomB always seems to get some good late growth..I'm not sure I can get that quick early Main length but maybe some additional late season I might be able to get some more out of. What are you doing to prolong the power of the plant to feed the pumpkin.

11/13/2004 8:06:54 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Alexsdad, WOW! These last few boards have really been helpful in stirring the pot. Some hitters are in the neighbourhood too. It is great to see the science behind the AGP taking the forefront instead of our tried and true efforts, Trial and Error. I am know expert thats for sure. I'm just extremely curious about what drives the engine of these plants. I always try to ask why and then begin a broad based search to find answers to points you guys are raising. Most of my research leads to dead ends but occassionally I find a couple of good links now and then. That early ethylene link was full of Jargon. Here is another that it is much more clearly defined. Much of my previous post came directly from it.

http://www.kesmist.com/airborne_path/11_ethylene_gas.htm#silent

11/13/2004 8:31:37 AM

Deer Park, WI

Bortner- The point i was making was that when these fruit were set, they had 400-600-800 sq behind them. Now obviuosly Carlson's fruit didnt split at softball size, or he would never have gotten it to 1400.

Carlson, that's it. This handful of mud has your name on it. Eat it buddy!

Thanks for the info on Ethylene Kahuna. That's good stuff. It would be nice to tie in the role of abscissic acid into the mix as well. Topic for another disucssion I guess!

11/13/2004 4:24:02 PM

Amherst, WI

I don't know, Joe.... I find that with a lot of vine growth beyond the pumpkin, it makes it harder to "turn" them. Nyuck, Nyuck.

11/13/2004 7:07:44 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Joze, Thanks for raising the bar and stirring the mentoring pot... I have work to do yet. Maybe soon it will be back to school for the Kahuna.

Is there a way to prevent the triggering of the stomata closing abscisic acid and keeping transpiration strong into the cool days of Late August and early September? I mean the longer and faster the engine turns the more product is produced(SUGARS)then we store all the spoils in our bank(Fruit. Steve have you done any late season experiments auxin inhibiting?

I am far to new at this to graspe the relationship of certain auxin inhibitors and there roll in keeping the plant actively transpiring. Holding the scale to side of auxins could increase your harvest though. I know that we seem to do a good job in getting our plants started but keeping the darn things going has been mastered by only a few growers.

Here is a link to Kimball's Biology Pages. A very good biology search site that is linked to a free data base.

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/W/Welcome.html

11/13/2004 11:45:02 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Russ, if I'm understanding this right, than the excess of ethylene gas will trigger the ripening of the fruit. Could the ripening of other fruits & veggies in your garden raise the levels high enough to trigger your pumpkins to start the ripening process? Also, it mentions that car exhaust has high levels of ethylene gas. Could living close to a major highway affect the levels in the garden or would it have dissipated enough not to effect it? Just wondering......Phil

11/14/2004 8:14:17 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Phil, apparently the answer to the first part is YES! Other fruit could trigger the ripening response. As for the second part I simply do not have enough information to make a determination. It may depend upon the condition of the nonsuberized roots and the roll the other auxins & abscisic acid plays in inhibiting the development of Ethylene gas in the leaves controlling transpiration. Is it possible that suberized roots can't keep up with the nutrient demand when warm spells come after a cool spell? I don't know. What happens to the plant right after a cool spell could help us to learn more. Does wanning sunlight in Dog days begin to signal a acid response that begins the ethylene factory?This is getting pretty deep I know but help may come from others in the group who are far more knowledgeable than me.
Growing the fruit is more of a challenge than I thought thats for sure. Keep reading and researching...

11/14/2004 9:03:16 AM

Minnesota([email protected])

It just seems to me that surrounding ethylene gas emissions, from vegetables in the garden, would be of minimal, or no effect to the ripening of the pumpkin. I would think the ethylene gas would be dissipated in the air quite quickly. I would think that a large fruit, like an A.G. would need relatively high concentrations of ethylene gas surrounding it, to have an appreciable affect on ripening. If you were growing in an air tight system, this would be another story.

Doug

11/14/2004 10:49:53 AM