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I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

I have a very heavy clay soil. For several years I have been
adding organic matter, and that has helped, but I'm now
thinking about adding some sand in addition to the organic
matter (which seems to disappear as fast as I add it).

Anybody have some experience, rules of thumb, etc.? How much
per 1000 square?

10/13/2004 3:16:19 PM

Roselle, IL [email protected]

I have added coarse sand, around 6 yards last year. my patch is around 1200 sq/ft. It seemed to loosen things up. I also added 10 yards of composted horse manure to the mix

10/13/2004 6:23:58 PM

Puyallup, WA

Cliff,
I know first hand how discouraging it can be seeing little progress after adding organic matter to your patch.
Yes, you can add small amounts of sand ie. 500# per 1000 sq.ft. However, you will need to add MASSIVE amounts of leaves and manure to your patch to see any progress. If you really want to make substantial progress, ie. really
want to improve the soil texture in one year...here's what I did. I had/have heavy clay just like you. For my patch of 4000 sq.ft. I added 19 pick-up loads of manure and 12
huge loads of wet maple leaves. Do your utmost to work this into the soil as soon as possible. It takes a minimum of two years for the soil to absorb all the nutrients, but you will have great start. In the spring, I added 700# of
gypsum and some lime. I grew a 800#er the following summer.
Now.....if you think that I am some radical pumpkin nut!

Right on! :>)

10/13/2004 6:26:00 PM

[email protected]

Try to find the coarsest sand possible. Even fine Pea Gravel is better. Cement & bricks are made with sand plus a binder (Mortar or clay!)

Try also looking into this stuff:

http://www.proschoice1.com/

Soilmaster keeps air in the rootzone & assists in the drainage of water. It's also how the skinned areas (clay) are kept from getting too hard on Pro baseball fields.

Watch the ALCS games since both fields have had their infields improved with it.

10/13/2004 6:48:38 PM

Vancouver, White Rock, Canada

Another reason to watch the Yankees pummel the Sox... soil treatment. Excellent.

10/14/2004 6:14:41 AM

Deer Park, WI

Dont add sand!!!!

Recently went to a soils class, and this was a topic of discussion. The addition of sand will do nothing to dilute the amount of clay. As Tremor said Cement= sand plus clay!

Only add organic materials to your soils. What can a pumpkin gain from sand anyways???

10/14/2004 8:47:17 AM

Cologne / Germany

Anyone using perlite mixed into the soil? My soil is pretty good but it tends to "paste" and compact after a while - a neighbour told me it´s typical for the kind of rich top soil we have in our area.

10/14/2004 9:19:47 AM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Ha ha ha, wouldn't you know it, I'm a diehard baseball fan and
Yankee fan. You don't need to tell me to watch the ALCS (or
the NLCS for that matter...)!

I've heard both arguments on sand... I've heard that you have
to add enough, because too little can equal the cement
texture that has been mentioned. This is the first time I've
heard that a more coarse sand is better.

Part of my problem is I can't ever afford to treat the
whole garden. My garden area is 18,000 sq ft. (1/3 acre)
Not all of that is pumpkins... so eventually I'd have a
sandy area in the middle of lots of clay. -Cliff

10/14/2004 9:52:02 AM

Knopp, Germany

what happens when the season is over to the sand that people use under the pumpkins as they are growing?

10/14/2004 9:53:39 AM

New Salisbury IN

Don't Add any sand Sant+ clay = cement
I have had to use hammer and chisel to get sand and clay
out of pots coustomers have brought in to refill

10/14/2004 10:25:29 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

I tilled it in, Owen.

10/14/2004 10:29:51 AM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Yeah, the little bit of sand just gets tilled in, gone
forever. Or at least unseen... it's too small an amount.
I'm wondering, two inches over the entire patch? More?

Or none...

Maybe I'll try it in a corner of the garden, the "borrow
pit" area... mix it up and see what becomes of it.

10/14/2004 11:01:27 AM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Everyone is saying "cement" and I understand that... but right
now what I have is "ceramic"! ;-) The areas I have to walk on,
buy the end of the season are hard pan.

10/14/2004 11:06:36 AM

Southern California

I live if an area with dense clay, the indians used it to make pottery and later the Spaniards used it to make tile. My solution was to create raised beds and had a dump truck full of organic/soil mix brought in (my wife said it was my Christmas present). This has made all the difference in the world. I created a 650 sq. ft. area for the pumpkin roots and the vines grow beyond. My best to date is 550 lbs.
Craig Johnson

10/14/2004 11:12:09 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

I'd have to agree with Joze and others about not adding sand. When I did a simple organic matter test (soil in a jar, mix with water, shake and let settle) I ended up with clay on the bottom, then sand, then silt (loam), then organic matter on the top. I would imagine that with clay soil, over time the sand would just sit on top of the clay and not help your situation at all. Organic matter is the answer and lots of it.

10/14/2004 12:00:35 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

I have heard lots of gypsum will break up the clay particles.

10/14/2004 12:22:07 PM

Brillion Wisconsin

I tilled in some Jersey Green Sand this spring before planting(40 lbs/1,000 sqft). The bag says it helps loosen clayey soil. This fall I was suprised at how soft and non-compacted my clayey soil was. The tiller dug deep effortlessly on the first pass. I think green sand also adds a little K to the mix. I might till some more in this fall after my test come back. I never tried regular sand and probably won't after reading the previous posts.

10/14/2004 1:07:10 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

I appreciate all the responses. What is Green Sand? I'll go
look it up...

10/14/2004 1:36:01 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Green"sand" is a variety of sandstone, usually imperfectly consolidated, consisting largely of glauconite, a silicate of iron and potash of a green color, mixed with sand and a trace of phosphate of lime.

Greensand is often called marl, because it is a useful fertilizer. The greensand beds of the American Cretaceous belong mostly to the Upper Cretaceous.

From the dictionary/G

10/14/2004 2:22:43 PM

Utah

Cliff-

OM -- any way you can get it ! manure- leaves- etc...
my soil was a fairly heavy clay two years ago... i figure it is somewhat similar to yours..
yes it takes a lot ... and it decays and dissappears...
but it the way to go...
gordon

10/14/2004 3:13:23 PM

Sydney, Australia

Raised beds....... forget the clay and start from scratch? Of course that requires money to invest in good soil. I had to do that with the soil in my backyard.

Ben

10/14/2004 5:54:31 PM

Puyallup, WA

Cliff: You know the saying, "Opinions are like ***holes, everybody has one". You will just have to make up your own mind as to whom you will listen. I chose to listen to those who have "walked the walk".

10/14/2004 9:33:02 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

ha ha, thanks... I appreciate the discussion. I think I'll
concentrate on organic matter for now. Fall is the best time
to find it!

10/15/2004 10:53:07 AM

Montoursville, PA

Green Sand is referenced to two specific areas in my books. One area, from which most Northeastern distributors get it, is New Jersey Green Sand. The other area mentioned is Texas Green Sand. Is is everything mentioned in the above posts plus lots, of trace minerals. Both are, from the sea, originally. It is a natural product similar, to Ironite and Fertrell's Azomite. Most likely the best of all worlds would be, to use up, to twenty pounds, in a thousand square foot patch yearly alternating sources and types. All of the above are billed as mineralization choices. All claim to break up clay hard pan and such. Keep a watchfull eye on the Iron build up, in your soil test results. All will help you grow a healthier plant more able, to withstand some pathegon attack.

10/16/2004 9:33:14 AM

Canada

Yup In my Fall Prep I tilled in 10 Lbs of Jersey GreenSand
50 Lb Bag $14.95, Stuff is suppose to work pretty well

Analysus

Potash 7.15 %
Phosphate 1.17 %
Calcium 1.80 %
Magnesium Oxide 3.66 %
Iron 20.57 %
Aluminum 7.76 %
Silica 49.50 %

Trace Elements:

Barium,Boron,Chromium colbalt
Copper,Lithium, Maganese, molybdenum, Nickle,
Rubidium sodium, Tin, Titanium, Vanadium, Zinc and
Zirconium.

10/16/2004 3:10:41 PM