From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Chesterfield, MO

What are some of the pumpkins this year that went "weigh" over the charts?

10/6/2004 7:40:28 PM

Sparta, NC

My 658 Lovelace ( 307 Little x self ) was 18.45% over.

10/6/2004 7:52:58 PM

Md/ Usa

It does not matter because the chart is for estimation only. Over the chart only means that shape,wall thickness and density are not the same as those assume under ott.
Ott assumes uniform wall thickness,wall density and globe like shape. Since we all know these factors very so much
from fruit to fruit. Calling some heavy is really point less compare to chart. As per the study done last year proves that heaviness is not a genticly based traite.

10/6/2004 7:58:56 PM

canal winchester ohio

Mat, I have to know..Do you walk thru parks popping kids balloons just for kicks ?
Cause your always popping mine

10/6/2004 8:01:21 PM

Western Pa.

I think he's the one whom leaves shopping cart dings on the new vehicles, and bubblegum or chewing tobacco all over the sidewalks!

Popping over here in Pa!

10/6/2004 8:11:49 PM

Cologne / Germany

Hey Mat, show a pic of yourself so we can see to which kind of chart you can be compared.

10/6/2004 8:26:29 PM

North Ga

What

10/6/2004 8:30:02 PM

Cologne / Germany

thanks

10/6/2004 8:37:37 PM

Md/ Usa

huff no i don't. But huff i do hate dealing with the math and physics impaired.

10/6/2004 8:39:09 PM

Md/ Usa

the truth is that heavyness is governed weather and soil factors.

10/6/2004 8:41:12 PM

Cologne / Germany

the truth is that according to your theories we should all forget about the basics of AG growing like using OTT estimation. That´s not math and physics, that´s ignorance. What did you grow this year?

10/6/2004 8:44:16 PM

Rhode Island

i taped 6 ft 1 " and was over the chart at 255

i think ill plant myself next year

the walls are thick and plenty of crows feet

pap

10/6/2004 8:45:09 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

pap, I don't believe I have laughed that hard today (now called LOL).

G

10/6/2004 8:48:20 PM

[email protected]

Only hours since the weigh off and it's starting already
Going to be a long winter. LOL
Eddy

10/6/2004 8:49:00 PM

Md/ Usa

floh you have misunderstand me ott is good for estmate growth increases but bad at projecting final weight in ununiform fruit.

10/6/2004 8:49:05 PM

Massachusetts

two fruit within 6 feet of each other on diffrent plants ....same soil....same weather ??? one was light....one was 10% heavy???

10/6/2004 8:59:01 PM

Cologne / Germany

we should all have enough pumpkins now to load the slingshots:-) Mat, what did you grow this year?

10/6/2004 9:00:18 PM

Cologne / Germany

sorry, the catapults...

10/6/2004 9:02:38 PM

Md/ Usa

cape so what if measure a sherical shape wrong by a few inches it throws the calculation off by a cubed factor.

10/6/2004 9:11:04 PM

Cologne / Germany

Do you really think the people developing these OTT charts over years and with hundred or thousands of pumpkins to compare didn´t consider the fact of uniform and non uniform pumpkins??

10/6/2004 9:17:11 PM

Md/ Usa

floh they did that is why early charts recomend only using ott on uniform fruits the rest just common sense.
floh if want i can explain it to if you are up for the advanced calculus.

10/6/2004 9:20:42 PM

Md/ Usa

the best way to measure a fruit is to use 3d scanner to calculate volume times a standard density factor.

10/6/2004 9:29:08 PM

Md/ Usa

with out weighing the fruit.

10/6/2004 9:31:15 PM

Chesterfield, MO

woah lol

10/6/2004 9:32:59 PM

Cologne / Germany

X-ray sounds better. Will talk to our family doctor next time, I´m sure he will let me take his one and use it in the patch on the weekends.

10/6/2004 9:36:02 PM

Chesterfield, MO

So am I hearing now that the wall thickness of the fruit has nothing to do with genetics? I can understand some of it is based on factors besides genetics, but all of it??

10/6/2004 9:37:13 PM

Cologne / Germany

Wall thickness has nothing to do with the final weight. It´s just the gas inside the cavity that makes a pumpkin heavy.

10/6/2004 9:40:31 PM

Md/ Usa

floh would you like explain volume and density
to you.

10/6/2004 10:14:55 PM

new middletown ohio

You have a bad crack on the blossom end
lol Raggu

10/6/2004 10:27:27 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Hey, what about my 307? Ron Rahe's went 26% heavy!
Maybes Ron's gas is heavier than Sam's?

10/6/2004 10:52:25 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

1446 = 19% heavy OTC...explain that one matfox?

10/6/2004 10:53:17 PM

Choctaw, OK

3d scanner....???? what do one of those run a person these days. Personally, i dont care if OTT isnt perfectly accurate, surprise is a great element in this hobby...the good and bad.

I consistantly pull heavy fruit from my garden, i believe its just the seeds i choose to grow. I had an 846 fruit go almost 13% heavy(last years 830). Pollinated a 783 daletas that was right on charts, according to est, and that seed (502 palbrach) grew me a 730 lb fruit that was more than 13% heavy....the fruit wasnt oddly shaped. I got lucky and got the male genetics in the line and happy i selfed the fruit. good orange color and either wall denseness or thickness is part of the reason. I grew a 735 pukos this year and it too was over charts(857.5, est 783)...more 846 genetics. I dont know what accounts for this percent over all the time for me. Each year the weather is different and i didnt even ammend the soil this last fall or spring..no manure or anything...still same result. its too complicated to really figure out.

case

10/6/2004 10:55:28 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Its true...genetics

1] do not influence how a fruit weighs vs the measurements;
3-d scanners do.

2]do not influence how fast fruit grow, methamphetamines do.

3]do not influnce ribbon and flat vines traits, plant LSD does.

4] do not influnce weights of thick wall fruits, taping lead to the fruit does.

5] do not combine specific traits together, super glue does.

10/7/2004 12:23:44 AM

Knopp, Germany

my 628 olsen went 24% otc, i think it's the lead in my soil.

10/7/2004 12:53:28 AM

Wichita, KS

"Taping lead to the fruit..."

LOL!!!!!!!

whew! can somebody close the door? It feels kinda wintery in here!

10/7/2004 1:47:55 AM

Vancouver, White Rock, Canada

So this is what happens here after the weigh offs are done and winter is setting in? Wow.

10/7/2004 4:10:11 AM

Western Pa.

Huff,

You've got balloons popping all over the place! Back to Floh's question: Mat, what have YOU grown?

10/7/2004 4:30:02 AM

Colo.Spgs.CO. Pikes Peak Chapter @ [email protected]

floh... If you get a good genetic fruit scanned by an x- ray machine , I definately want some of those seeds, as they are eithe going to be sterile, or are going to do some very amazing things....LOL... ANYONE ELSE ever try radiating there pumpkin before retreving the seeds ??.. Maybe that is what causes flats, ribbons and other problems.....LOL...what a long winter it is going to be.!!!

10/7/2004 4:48:58 AM

ENGLAND

When i got my Pumpkin from wall mart, for the 50Lb Club, i asked at the counter what it taped out at. They politely informed me that it will tell me when i get it scanned at the checkout! I also saw a guy in there popping kids baloons and charging around the store shouting "Tape it before you buy it" ! it took one guy 4 hours to buy a bag of potatoes ! every one of them was 75% over chart !

LMHO

10/7/2004 7:25:59 AM

North Ga

What

10/7/2004 7:30:41 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Yikes...gonna be a long cold winter! Think I saw the Poor Dog taking OTT measurements on himself today!

10/7/2004 7:49:50 AM

Itzetown City

If all goes heavy, you should check and adjust your tape. There are some cheap ones they expand after using them too often.

10/7/2004 8:07:04 AM

Belgium/brussels

my 760 pappas = 845 nesbitt pumpkin went 40 % otc.
You read it good : it was 40 % heavy !!!
That's why I'll probably grow another 760 pappas next year ! ( cross is 582 hester x 898 knauss ! )

Stijn.

10/7/2004 10:04:38 AM

Belgium/brussels

I mean my 760 pappas X 845 nesbitt pumpkin

10/7/2004 10:08:07 AM

Md/ Usa

here is an example that show that small differences measurement make big difference projected weight.
example 1.
10 centmeters= decmeter
1 decmeter cubed = 1 cubic decmeter
1 cubic decmeter x 1 kg =1 kg/ 1 decmeters cube

1.05 decmeter cubed=1.157625 cubic decmeters x 1 kg per cubic decmeter
density 1.157625 kg/cubic decmeters 15.7% wieght difference

1.1 decmeter cubed=1.331 cubic decmeters x 1 kg per cubic decmeter
density 1.331 kg/cubic decmeters 33.1% wieght difference

10/7/2004 10:17:32 AM

ENGLAND

Pappy
I was trying to make light of a thread that was getting heavy. LMHO means Laughing My Head Off.

10/7/2004 10:27:36 AM

Western NY

matfox: you sure you're from the US? i thought we used inches (kidding). anyway, these are estimates, not to be taken extremely seriously. for example, people don't need to measure their pumpkins to the quarter of an inch. halves are good enough. HOWEVER, for most fruit, the charts are within 5%. that's where statistics come in and take over the science (what i assume you're trying to argue). nobody should brag that their fruit is 5% heavy. it's just not a big deal, since statistically, it weighed what the measurements said it would. what this thread was supposed to be about was those that were statistically one or more standard deviation off what we condider normal.

so, here's the best over the chart i've ever had:

513 Wolf 03, about 26% heavy, normal shape with smooth skin. from the 917 Wolf

10/7/2004 11:51:01 AM

Md/ Usa

andy W i am from US it is just that ft pounds are to confusing to may people because of non decimal math they entail.

10/7/2004 12:41:47 PM

Rapid City, SD

You STILL haven't told us what YOU have grown Mat.

10/7/2004 12:45:39 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

On average what % heavy do wheeled fruit weigh in at?

10/7/2004 1:05:26 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Yeah... Matt... I just scrolled back up and down the list and have noticed a lot of people have kept asking you what your weights were this year. Not that size matters, but I'm interested how big you got this year now too...

10/7/2004 1:09:09 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

It sure seems to me that the 898 Knauss has a hand in a lot
of the really over the chart fruits (20 to 40% over), and
that alone should tell us something.

10/7/2004 1:09:10 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

sshhhh Cliff!

We're all waiting for Matt's answer....

10/7/2004 1:15:20 PM

Key West, FL

My 620 off my 880 was 23.7% heavy. Didn't have a good year, but atleast my pumpkin went heavy :)

10/7/2004 1:28:27 PM

South Hill, Virginia

Actually I'm more with Matt on this one. The "chart" is just regression analysis. Since you are fitting a curve through a bunch of data points it will be more acurate at some weights than others. When (if) the chart is adjusted each year as more weights and measurements are recorded then what was a "heavy" seed could very well become a "light" seed. He is right, a more accurate judge of heaviness or lightness would be by finding your pumpkins density. Of course to do that you need volume and that isn't very practical to record on AG shaped objects (especially when they weigh 1000 LBS). I think some people mistaken believe that the pumpkins should follow the chart when it's really the chart following the pumpkins.

Just my two cents on this one, don't mean to fuel what seems to be a touchy subject (though I don't understand why it's touchy).

10/7/2004 1:35:42 PM

canal winchester ohio

I don't know about all that but my OTT is 231" but I weigh 285 so I guess I would go heavy to the charts ( I'm full of a lot of gas floh). Now my wife goes light to the charts ( after 20 years of marriage I'm a VERY smart man when it comes to that subject).
Now both my kids are a tad heavy to the charts ( full of gas as well) so my theory is that the male pollinator is the main factor in figuring thickness.......Whew, that's was a strech.......LOL

10/7/2004 1:48:00 PM

Itzetown City

Feed your Pumpkins cabbage, beans and onions and they´ll go heavy. LOL

10/7/2004 2:09:11 PM

ENGLAND

Has anyone ever considered injecting Helium into their pumpkins just to make them weigh light. And for the heck of it of course. LOL

10/7/2004 3:20:28 PM

Wroclaw, Poland (51 N, 17 E)

Helium is not so light. The pumpkin would weigh 50 lbs less if it is 500 lbs or so... Hydrogen woulkd be better :-) (and then blow the pumpkin !)

10/7/2004 3:30:22 PM

wilmington,ma.

If you don't want to go heavy1 Try BENO.

10/7/2004 3:41:50 PM

North Ga

I wasn't directing my thoughts at anyone in particular PM. I just happened to wonder "what" The heck happened!! LOL

10/7/2004 4:08:37 PM

North Ga

What is a decmeter Matt?

10/7/2004 4:13:58 PM

Knopp, Germany

that's what 10 centmeters are made of pappy, geez....

10/7/2004 4:29:47 PM

Choctaw, OK

I would agree also that figuring out the volume and density would be more accurate, but who has time to do that?

I may be in college, but i still wouldnt know where to start to figure that out. And, i dont know if i would put in the time to figure it out either.

case

10/7/2004 5:01:57 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

1260 Weir = the most heavy OTC progeny producing seed out there, bar none.

10/7/2004 5:36:22 PM

Cologne / Germany

The only simple way to have some more evidence here is to grow the pumpkin in a cubic fish tank filled with a fixed amount of water. The water flooding out of the fish tank while the pumpkin is growing needs to be counted in a measuring jug. A sinking or swimming pumpkin is just a question of the amount of gas inside the cavity compared to the density of the fruit in relation to the water. So I wouldn´t suggest to use sea water because it might tamper your results. If anyone will do this in 2005 please keep us informed.
Before I forget, Mat, what did you grow this year?

10/7/2004 5:53:26 PM

North Ga

Oh crap!! I should have known that Owen! Thanks! LOL

10/7/2004 5:59:14 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Man, I saw that scale shaking with fear when they lifted my 307 pumpkin onto it. Tom Beachy even gave that baby a few raps before guessing it would go 500lbs. That baby was a rock! Tape measure or not.

10/7/2004 6:43:23 PM

Parts Unknown

The Carter 995.2 was 12.5 % heavy, plus had good shape and color. The cross was the 783 Daletas + Carter 1002(03).

10/7/2004 7:41:13 PM

Md/ Usa

floh took year off to grow water melon to try to take $25000 snapple prize. Floh one does not have grow to realize ott is flawed by math alone.

10/7/2004 8:12:23 PM

Md/ Usa

pappy i defined decmeters in same post.

10/7/2004 8:15:38 PM

Md/ Usa

floh well a guy in altoona grew a watermelon in water cooler bottle.

10/7/2004 8:17:28 PM

Western Pa.

Let me see, I think this thread really took off after the 3rd posting which came from matfox. A little further down there was an inference(by Mr. fox) that some of us may be math and physics impaired. There were also a few references to floh by (Mr. fox) abut floh not being "up for advanced calculus" or "being able to comprehend volume and density". Also that many of us are "confused" by the decimal system. All of this "knowledge" comes from a person whom has the poorest grammar and spelling I have ever seen. The only thing I have seen you contribute to this site is a list of "World Records", much of which was straight from a text, and very often inaccurate. For some one that is such an expert, and so much more intelligent than the rest of us, why can't you simply inform the rest of us what kind of successes you have had in the world of growing your own giant vegetables, and why with all your almighty intelligence, you have been avoiding this question for several years now! Who are you? The BS doesn't ALWAYS stop when the tailgate drops!

10/7/2004 8:20:28 PM

Massillon, Ohio

lol kilr. i am a MATH TEACHER and even i just simply wait to see what the scale reads.

"estimating", "on pace", ALL FOO-FOO.

10/7/2004 8:47:57 PM

Massillon, Ohio

p.s. the second you use too much brain power in pumpkin growing, things go wrong.

10/7/2004 8:53:58 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

matfox,
I think I know you from another gardening forum as Bigtomatotaste. Am I correct? I'm not judging you, just making a connection(Bingo!!! it hit me!!!). If I'm wrong, sorry. If I'm correct, I post there as Douglas14.
If correct, it's a small cyberworld:-)

Doug(Douglas)

10/7/2004 8:59:17 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

He obviously hasn't grown anything...he just likes to talk about the subject(s)
Can you say "blowhard"?

10/7/2004 9:07:07 PM

White Bear Lake, Minnesota

Thanks everyone, now we have to figure out the entertainment factor of these threads, or have we already went OTT.

10/7/2004 9:18:45 PM

White Bear Lake, Minnesota

Maybe we can quit trying to predict how long the winter will be, with the wooly bear catapillar or the ground hog and just go by the irritability factor on these posts.

Jussst a thought!!

10/7/2004 9:27:22 PM

North Ga

There's lot's more to read on this machine but this is just fun!!!! LMAO!!!

10/7/2004 9:34:55 PM

Md/ Usa

kilrpumpkins since you asked what I have grown i tell
you tomato 3.75 last season watermelon 104,95
cantalope 12. pumpkin 450, 650 lbs
my giant line up next year.
long gourd
watermelon
eggplant
pumpkin
onion
carrot
parsnip
cantaloupe
cucumber
lettuce
cabbage

10/7/2004 10:22:44 PM

Sequim, WA

Grampa's right, it's gonna be a lllllooooonnnnnggggg winter. I guess I'm not the only one who's gone off his meds. ;o) Matfox has been active on this list for at least a couple of years. Jeez a guy types something in that maybe he could have put more thought into and BAM we're on him like mosquitoes at twilight.
Why don't we get back to the question first posted? I think it's a reasonable question because until the fruit hit the scale, the OTT estimate is all we have to go by in making a selection if we have several fruit of similar size to choose from. Unless of course we have an inline scale like some folks I know or a knack for thumping them for thickness like testing for ripeness of a watermelon. I am constantly amazed by the number of fruit I've grown that are so close or right on what the tables say it should weigh. If most folks didn't think genetics played a part in fruit wall thickness the 898 Knauss would not be as sought after as it is and people wouldn't be attempting to recreate that cross. Mastagardener asked a legitimate question that deserves an answer even if I cannot give it to him. Lets help the kid out and get this thread back on track. If this list is going to carry on like this all winter I'm gonna bail and go hang out with my good buddy Johnny Johnny, who by the way is a hell of a nice guy in real life and a talented grower of giant pumpkins. Giant pumpkin growing brings out the kid in a lot of us, lets make sure the kid who shows up is the one our grandparents thought so highly of and not the one who went around smashing mailboxes and pumpkins and egging cars. I can do without them.

10/8/2004 12:53:43 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

well said Chris...I'm humbled

10/8/2004 7:16:28 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

....and, JohnnyJohnny is nice in real life?

10/8/2004 7:17:25 AM

Md/ Usa

doug14 nope Bigtomatotaste is someone else,but know who he is though.

10/8/2004 10:02:28 AM

Md/ Usa

southern i think you are blowhard.
kilrpumpkins :I did not imply people here where math impaired only floh.

10/8/2004 1:34:03 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Ouch, matfox. Have you seen a picture of Southern? I guess not....hope you don't meet him one day.

10/8/2004 1:45:28 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Whatever Matfox, your opinion means nothing to me...and apparently less to a few other folks here.

10/8/2004 2:12:35 PM

Sequim, WA

matfox, I don't know if you read what I posted here earlier, but if want to continue to dig yourself into a hole you will have a crowd ready to throw the dirt back in it when you have gotten it deep enough. Get yourself some happy pills and contemplate your successes this year. And floh, don't bait him, jeeze, what's it take to get you kids to play nice? Yes Kyle, JJ is a nice guy, but like quite a few others here doesn't communicate well in this forum and was lynched for it without a trial. Let's get back to Mastagardeners question, anybody know of pumpkins from recent weighoffs that weighed a lot more than expected and what they were grown from? Inquiring minds want to know.

10/8/2004 2:28:01 PM

Itzetown City

All 3 pumpkins I took to a competition were over the chart. 715 Michalec I taped 147 lbs it weighted 165 lbs.
1121 Ford I taped 220 lbs it weighted 237 lbs.
579 Welty I taped 161 lbs its weigh was 203 lbs.
Did I taped wrong? I think no. I guess they went heavy in due to the weather we have had, a lot of rain and low temps. The pumpkins grow slow and they probably suck a lot of water. But´s only my guess.

10/8/2004 3:56:33 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Did anyone notice the 1446 was 19% heavy? Whew!

10/8/2004 4:01:42 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Seems like the 1225 Jutras is throwing heavy OTC too?

10/8/2004 4:03:38 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Just a few loose ends...

Shapes - don't matter, they're part of the whole thing.
Poor shapes will weigh poorly (to the chart) and will be
less likely to survive. I guess, that is, if you believe
that shapes are genetic. I certainly believe that they are.
Great shapes will weigh heavy. That's just what we want.

With regard to the chart, I don't hear a lot of discussion
on my idea of developing a piece-wise chart. It would go
something like this:

OTT 0 to 250 have an equation
OTT 250 to 350 have an equation
OTT 350 and up have an equation

This has a few benefits:

1) The chart is more accurate for each grouping.

2) One doesn't have to go back and re-do the entire
chart every year. The smaller numbers are mature. In the
largest category, we get better data each year. So just
re-do that, and leave the other categories alone.

(Yes, theoretically, we get better data in each category
each year, but I'm an engineer... just trying to design
something that actually WORKS for people!)

10/8/2004 5:05:18 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

My pumpkin (953 Langevin X 1260 Weir) had an OTT of 302.75"(which estimated around 570lbs. or so, depending on which chart). It weighed 615 lbs. Another 1260 Weir genetic going heavy.

Doug

10/8/2004 11:10:18 PM

White Bear Lake, Minnesota

I think it would be interesting to get a number of growers together, say 10 or 15, with one(1) tape, so there is no variation. Have each of them measure the same pumpkin and see how many different results there would be.
Hummmmmm! Very interesting.

10/8/2004 11:11:55 PM

Mill Creek West by god Virginia

hi all i guess i meet this qualification,this being my first year im proud of my accomplishments!anyway here goes my 296 barrett04 was a beachy cross-7 914wentzellx801.5steltz it was only 90inches circumference weighed on certified scale at 269lbs,my 196barrett04-was a 668campbell-688machenzie x1048coxx it was 80 inches circumference weighed on certified scales 196 lbs yes im math challenged dont know percent heavy these went but i know heavy anywone figure percent out for me? burrhead

10/9/2004 12:40:28 AM

Walkerton Ont

burhead my 668 campbell was crossed with the 1048 cox x 1007 k brown cross that is off of pandp seeds

10/9/2004 12:51:20 AM

Mill Creek West by god Virginia

opps sorry cory i got numbers running on my brain!i was reading off my seeds list and got wrong info,hey do you think i done to bad with the 668 considering how little time i had with it very late pollination,hey can you figure how heavy it went for me?i know i will be planting it again this year!

10/9/2004 10:52:27 PM

Sequim, WA

My daughters 616 M. Michalec 04 just was at 298" OTT and was estimated at 544.6 lbs. So it was 13.1% heavier than expected. And a smooth beautiful orange pumpkin. My 690 Michalec 04 was a smooth white fruit that went 314" OTT and 8.5% heavier than expected. Molly's 616 was grown from her 576 from last year and the 690 came off the 717 Mitchell 01. I may not have a PB this year but at least my daughter does. If I don't get it together soon she's gonna pass me right up.

10/10/2004 12:53:52 AM

Greencastle, PA

my 298 went 52%over the OTT estimate. My 119 went 70% over OTT. neither fruit were oddly shaped, you can see them in my diary. They were small so the chart is less accurate, but not by 52-70%. the 298 was off the 963 Stucker (801.5 x 935) and the 119 was off the 1061.5 Ciliberto (723 x 935). every fruit i have grown has been heavy. I crossed the 963 and 1061.5. if you'd like seeds let me know, i think my crosses have some potential for heavy otc as well as size (both parents have grown 1000 pounders)
Tom

10/10/2004 1:04:38 AM

Chesterfield, MO

Thanks for the replies everyone!

10/11/2004 9:52:43 PM