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Wichita, KS

Pap's thread on "develope your own, grow your own" is interesting. It made me think about my patch this year, and the difficulty I had with lae season starts and virgin soil. I had 7 plants this year in a new patch. Of the seven, only one plant has really performed at all, the 675 Hester. I want to plant the progeny seed, since it held up under the heat so well, but the only survivor was open pollinated. Not knowing the genetics, I am now reluctant. The genetics of the other plants, for the most part, did not appreciate the heat, or the soil, and produced nothing of significant value. But does it have everything to do with genetics, or are genetics only a part of the equation? I wonder if there is something more than natural selection going on here.

My "wild hair" idea is this: Does the parent have the ability to condition its seeds as they grow, so the next generation will be better prepared to adapt to the environment of the parent? It would seem that if nutrients were available in certain proportions, the seeds growing within the fruit would be genetically developed while using only those nutrients, proportioned only by the parents ability to take nutrients from the immediate environment. Would this "prime" a seed to be planted in similar soil as the parent?

Its a wild hair idea, and I was reluctant to ask cuz it sounds sorta silly, but what the heck?

10/6/2004 9:49:54 AM

[email protected]

I think you should plant it. Your observations are supportive of natural selection.

I doubt the genetics are altered by the environment the grow in. Rather the environment has caused you to observe the genetic traits expresed that are most suited to the environment available where you grow.

Nothing "wild hair" about this. Good old fasioned logic if you ask me.

10/6/2004 10:04:04 AM

Cologne / Germany

Steve, for the European growers we started to discuss Pap´s thread yesterday. How comes that Jos and Jantje from Belgium had some of the best results ever over here with seeds grown in Belgium and Germany last year (900+)? I never tried "our" seeds but it´s something to think about now. Maybe certain strains will "adapt" to the environment though.

10/6/2004 11:15:05 AM

Minnesota([email protected])

I'm wondering if local adaptation of A.G.s, as has been described lately here, is a realistic factor? I think what Tremor stated is more likely the case.
I'm no expert on the subject, but I have seen this environmental adaptation subject brought up on another message board, dealing with open pollinated tomatoes. One of the main tomato authorities on the forum(of whom I respect their expertese-though not infallible, I'm sure), stated something to the effect that, local adaptation would take many years to occur(thousands?), if I remember correctly. Mutations, etc., might result in plants better suited to a certain climate though.
I know tomatoes are different thn A.G.s, but it's something to consider.

Doud

10/6/2004 12:04:53 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

I meant Doug:-)

10/6/2004 12:05:18 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

This is a prime example of the perfect situation where you want to grow a particular genetic, but really only want the exact one from this seasons traits. What the hell to do....hmmmm....grow the seeds out of the open pollinate or what? There are no options, right? Wrong!

Git yer butt out in duh patch an go git a cutting!

Yes, the best solution is keep a clone alive, this way you are going to have a plant next season which you already know what capabilities it has and exactly what to expect from it. If you want to grow it because its traits are desirable to be used for cross breeding, well, there you go!
There is no better plant to have growing than the exact one you fell in love with. The clone eliminates the guessing game, even if the fruit was a self pollinate, your still not going to know if it will grow exactly what your looking for {although that would be option # 2}.

It still is not too late to get a cutting out of the patch, even if you had a frost or freeze. Go out and look around in the patch, you'll find tons of shoots growing out of the vines even if almost all of the plant looks dead. These shoots usually are on the larger established vines and already rooted. You will have to cut it away and then dig up the clump where the shoot is, then carefully place it in a pot and hope it has enough roots to stay alive. Usually if you take a smaller clump out, you'll be fine. Don't get greedy and try to cut out the largest shoot, those don't have enough roots to support life, and they usually don't make it.

Since you are in California, frost won't be a problem. So what are you waiting on? Don't you have that cutting dug up and potted yet? What seems to be the hold up? LOL...

10/6/2004 1:22:47 PM

Cologne / Germany

Hey Doug, just think about the "hot climate seeds" discussion here on BP.com all along the seasons. I believe there is some truth in that and it was proven several times (e.g. Boily from Australia and Carlos from Spain).
But - in my humble opinion - a hot climate seed is nothing else than some kind of adaption to the environment it was originally grown in, and it only took 1 or 2 AG seasons to show some good potential along with the fitting climate.

10/6/2004 1:24:17 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

floh,
I may be wrong, but I don't think genetics in a seed would change due to the environmnent it is grown in(I don't think this is possible). I'm thinking the best way to select for seeds that do well in a certain environment, would be to look at what genetics did well there, or in a similar environment, in the past.
I don't know the stuation over in Spain and Australia, but it could be that the genetics they planted out to start with, were good for that climate.
You could plant 50 plants of a cross in a field, self them, and select which ones did best in that field, and maybe get a little progress in selection of those that do best in your environment. But it maybe other factors would cause one plant to do better than another.
This genetic business is interesting, I hope to hear more comments.
I'll be emailing you soon floh.

Regards,
Doug

10/6/2004 2:47:36 PM

Wood River, Nebraska

How did last years clones do this year?

10/6/2004 4:12:59 PM

San Diego

being in a hot climate myself just like Ben and Carlos, I think developing my own "hot weather" seeds is even more vital than other growers, so I'm starting to do this the next few years. The vast majority of seeds come from mild climate areas, so no matter how good a mild climate seed is, my own produced hot weather seeds should do better here in san diego. The 950 boyton, which comes from the 845 bobier, is the best hot weather seed out there in my opinion. An 845 is awesome most of the time as well, but what average grower has the chance to get one? My friend's 950 stood up to 110 temps with no shade or misting, no wilting or burned leaves! Incredible. So if I can use the 950 as my "base" in 2 or 3 crosses the next few years, I should be starting a great line of warm weather seeds for myself. I will be going 950 x selfed this coming season. I'm sure there are a few really good heat resistant seeds with good genetics out there also, I'll be looking for them to use!:) Jimmy

10/6/2004 4:29:41 PM

Wichita, KS

Hmmmm. Responses are great, but they aren't speaking directly to the heart of my question. Its probably my fault for wording my post unclearly. Sorry. I took a logic class in college. Much of my thought probably isn't logical, but I did learn to be more clear with my questions when I applied some of the logic methods. Here goes...

(premise #1) Genetics are not altered one iota due to environment.

(premise #2) Soil everywhere is limited in its ability to contain usable nutrients for plants.

(hypothetical conclusion) The fats and proteins (other than DNA) stored in the seeds a pumpkin/squash produces have been affected by the plants ability to draw available nutrients out, although the genetic code remains unaltered.

If it is a reasonable theory, then all sorts of questions follow, but I'm just not sure it is reasonable. That's why I ask. In a way, it makes sense to me. metaphorically speaking, the foods a mother eats affect the health of the baby, and could affect its health for many years, especially if the mother doesn't eat properly. Likewise, a careful mother exercises properly, eats properly, maybe even plays music for the unborn child (I read the Chronicles of Narnia to my son before he was born). When the child is born, all this affects him/her in some way, even though it had nothing to do with genetics; it was entirely environmental.

So some of the questions that might follow are:

does a stressed plant produce stressed seeds that get a slow start or are not well prepared for the environment they find themselves in?

Could the vice-versa also be true?

could the environment of the parent condition the seeds to respond more appropriately to the same sor of environment the parent grew in?

Etc.

See, I don't know if the idea is far fetched, but I thought it might be worth mulling over.

10/6/2004 5:17:35 PM

[email protected]

We aren't forcing the hand of genetics when we choose to grow out own. For instance in that past 2 years I have observed my own 6-8 starts as well as the couple dozen starts of my various closest growing neighbor & the 22 plants grown each year by our friend AR.

That's about 50 different genetic sets in 2 years.

Of those, the strongest half dozen were grown on to produce fruit which bore seeds. Clearly these seeds are better suited to this area than the other 40 or so that failed to inspire confidence in the growers.

I found our own 842 Eaton to be a poor performer this year in my own patch with 2 fruit splitting at around 300 lbs each. Just up the road from here, another grower broke 500 lbs on the 842. Both 842's had Powdery Mildew in June. Yet Al Eaton found his to be somewhat resistant last year. I haven't heard comment of PM on his this year.

I think the point of this diatribe is that a seed stock that grows well in Virgina or Autralia is certainly not assured to perform the same way in Nova Scotia. But then again it could. AGs are funny critters.

10/6/2004 7:26:07 PM

Rhode Island

tremor is the man
listen to him folks he has it together when it comes to soil and treatments
pap

10/6/2004 9:12:41 PM

Md/ Usa

AGs are funny critters. so are all vine crops.

10/6/2004 9:17:42 PM

[email protected]

I missed something up there:

"does a stressed plant produce stressed seeds that get a slow start or are not well prepared for the environment they find themselves in?"

The opposite could be true.

I'm a practicing State certified arborist. Trees that are heavily stressed often do respond with a proliferation of seed production. These seeds are quite viable at the expense of the parent since perpetuation of the species is the ultimate goal. Long life in the end is sacrificed to insure the establishment of the progeny & the survival of the species.

None of which probably has any bearing on Pumpkins. But living with stess might in time elicit certain traits of stress resistence to be expressed.

That's an interesting theory. Survival of the fittest. Hmmmm....

10/6/2004 9:32:41 PM

Wichita, KS

"Trees that are heavily stressed often do respond with a proliferation of seed production. These seeds are quite viable at the expense of the parent since perpetuation of the species is the ultimate goal."

OH. So if the same is true for AGs, then I have a beauty of a seed!

I did plant a 252 Sawtelle (723 Bobier X self). It is the only hand pollination that survived in my patch (self pollinated, AND crossed with 659 Troy). It is the most mature, but only 60 pounds, UOW. I just got back my first soil sample, confirming that my soil sucks, so I should be happy I had a 60 pounder. Poor soil, intense heat, and a plant that produced a viable fruit with desirable genetics means (***if the same thing about trees can be applied to AGs***) that the seeds in my little pumpkin could have some strong potential.

...and I should plant them! :)

10/7/2004 12:00:14 PM

Kenyon, Mn.

Adaptation in plants is an interaction between the genetic make-up of theplant population and forces in the environment. Those plants that have genes that enable them to grow better in a particular environment will produce more offspring and eventually their genes will come to dominate
in
a particular environment. Most modern cultivars are either highly
inbred or
are very uniform hybrids. This means that all the plants in the
population
are genetically identical so there can be no selection. Assuming that
no
"off-type" seeds got into the field, any plant-to-plant variations are
due
to slightly different environmental conditions in a genetically uniform
population. Without genetic variation, there can be no natural
selection.
Natural genetic variation arises through mutation but because most
mutations produce negative effects the process of natural evolution
tends
to be very slow. There can be other reasons such as economics or
regional
self-reliance to grow locally produced seed.

10/8/2004 7:53:24 PM