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Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Soil can differ a lot within a few feet and affect plants differently. I had my 735 get ripped to shreds, but I kept whatever vines were alive, and grew out several "clones". What was so interesting to find, was all the fruits from each individual cutting grew differently in certain areas, while others all grew the same.

I had two grow huge shoulders and tiny blossom areas. Three grew regular shoulder size fruits with mainly round middles, two grew fruits with substantial length fruits and no shoulders, and one grew very very long. Each fruits characteristic traits grew a different or similar fruit in a specific region. The most different characteristic fruits were the furthest apart from one another, no different traits grew near each other...it seemed that there was a gradual difference which could only have been tied into a soil issue. What is odd, is I layered what I thought to be all the same amounts of manure/ leaves/ and compost equally over the garden last fall.

How could there have been such a drastic difference in soil {if that is the problem}? My only theory was that the closer towards my back brick wall, the more different the temperature of that soil microclimate was. I have taken soil temp readings ever since noticing, but all temps were reading the same... to be expected with leaf canopy cover. I'd bet that changes once I pull up the plants, then soil near the wall should be higher.

I'm sure elevation changes of any amount work similarly, or any shaded vs non shaded soil areas. Do microclimates have this much of an influence on fruit and plant growth because of differences in soil conditions? This has me totally stumped....

10/4/2004 12:45:36 AM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Could the soil organics have broken down differently before the plants ran over it, so different in fact, that fruits would all grow so different? Take out the fertilizer or pesticide factors, as there were none. Watering rates were equally applied as well. Maybe our soil tests are only giving us a partial idea of what we need to know. Microclimates and growing techniques seem to affect the soil from one SF to another, judging by these results. Sure, I'd say it is better to get tested, but unless many tests are made, don't always think the results apply throughout the garden the same. Tests are better than working in the dark, but they don't tell us how different one area is from another. Gut feeling still has to guide us as well it seems.

10/4/2004 12:45:51 AM

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Marc
I believe it to be the 846 Calai trait, as I grew the 1002 carter, a 735 X 846, and since I had crappy weather and new I wouldn't get anything big, I grew 5 different crosses on the plant. And as with yours, all 5 fruit were different.
I also grew a 735 in a greenhouse with 3 fruit on it and all 3 were different.
The ironic thing is that the same crosses on the 2 fruit were identical.
The 735 X 723 and the 1002 x 723 were long and barrel shaped
The 735 X 1002 and the 1002 X 735 were High shoulders and forward sloping blossom end
The 735 x 920 cole and the 1002 X 920 Cole were almost peanut shaper and the colors were much darker
Now I also grew the 237 Beachy(846 remake) and crossed it with the 723 and again it was quite simillar in same shape and color as the 1002 X 723 and the 735x 723.
So My theory is, the pollinator has somewhat of an influence to the fruit, I don't understand how, but it sure looks that way
Eddy

10/4/2004 9:56:21 AM

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Marc
I believe it to be the 846 Calai trait, as I grew the 1002 carter, a 735 X 846, and since I had crappy weather and new I wouldn't get anything big, I grew 5 different crosses on the plant. And as with yours, all 5 fruit were different.
I also grew a 735 in a greenhouse with 3 fruit on it and all 3 were different.
The ironic thing is that the same crosses on the 2 fruit were identical.
The 735 X 723 and the 1002 x 723 were long and barrel shaped
The 735 X 1002 and the 1002 X 735 were High shoulders and forward sloping blossom end
The 735 x 920 cole and the 1002 X 920 Cole were almost peanut shaper and the colors were much darker
Now I also grew the 237 Beachy(846 remake) and crossed it with the 723 and again it was quite simillar in same shape and color as the 1002 X 723 and the 735x 723.
So My theory is, the pollinator has somewhat of an influence to the fruit, I don't understand how, but it sure looks that way
Eddy

10/4/2004 9:57:45 AM

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sorry for the double post

10/4/2004 9:58:25 AM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Eddie;

Perhaps there is some merit to that theory.... One of the fruits I pollinated on one of the clones was a Hoomis self cross of the 567 Wallace, basically a 920. That fruit, although it grew round, is the darkest orange out of all fruits. It isn't older than any others, about in the middle as far as age goes.

I think maybe the most logical theory, is that the 735 genetic produces different shaped fruits at different stages of its life. The high shoulder fruits were set the earliest of all, the long ones the latest. Was this a similar observation on your behalf? If not, then perhaps it is a combination of soil/ genetics. That usually is the case with these very strange plants... it never is just one factor, but many, that make them act as they do.

My experiment was a controlled experiment, all using the same plant, but the vines were not tied into each other and sharing the same vine/ root/ stump systm. The long fruits are many feet from those with high shoulders. They are only 2-3 weeks younger.

Your findings bring up even more questions...LOL!

10/4/2004 11:29:19 AM

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It’s time for a post October 2 diatribe. I'll touch the soil testing subject on the soil board so as not to dump on your thread. Read that thread (it's 7000 characters), then dump on it or here. Makes no differnece.

Marc,

If I understand thermal dynamics, the brick wall would most likely (depending on color) absorb solar heat during the day & release it back into the surrounding air by night. This would be evident if one or more sides were contained by structure. In the open air, I doubt it would cause a thermal event more than a few inches away.

The effect the wall has on air circulation is fodder for another post.

10/4/2004 11:36:35 AM

Ma.

could the soil ph near the brick wall be higher than the rest of the patch due to lime leaching from the cement? I have seen highbush blueberries go chlorotic near a cement wall.It would be interesting to soil test each specific plant area.Just my 2 cents . george

10/4/2004 9:46:32 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

The wall should be a difference, soil and microclimate wise, as it separates my yard from my neighbors. The difference is my yard is 5 feet lower, a frost zone nightmare this time of year. There probably is lime leaching to a degree, but it would just be from the mortar. What Eddie brought up has sure got me wondering though if any of what I've seen is even soil related. I'd tend to think it has to, at least to some degree, just by observing the differences in fruit shapes for each area and how they change from one area of the garden to another. I just have not had many fruits differ so much in shape like the 735 did. The ones that were different over the years could be blamed on position or techniques. Are me and Eddie the only two to see this, or is that common from the 735's genetic?

10/5/2004 12:30:54 AM