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Choctaw, OK

I just saw an email on the mallorn mailing list stating from mark shymanski that he is auctioning off his seed collection on ebay. He has decided to not grow AG's anymore, and focus on melons and loupes. I do not know if i agree with his move to do this(auction his seeds) but i thought i had to let everyone see what he is auctioning off....seeds include, 1 723 bobier, 1 914 Wentzell, 2 940 Mombert 1998 (grew 1262), 3 825 shymanski, and 1 801 Stelts 97. Those seeds together are just incredible, the seed collection includes much more. here is the address...

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=1290468258

This should really stir up some bidding and opinions...high bid is already 200 dollar.

I have posted this message because i wanted to, not because mark said so or because he is a fellow friend and grower of mine....i merely want everyone to know it is there...I myself certainly couldn't put up enough money for it....wish i could! I really want to know peoples opinions on this? It is his seed collection and he can do what he wants with it, but i do not think i would sell mine.

Regards

Casey Neuville
Amherst jct. Wi
pb-762 "Iris" 2000

10/28/2001 1:04:11 AM

Connecticut

Isn't it against the PVP?

10/28/2001 7:31:29 AM

Commack, NY

it might be. BUT since he's selling an entire "collection" it might have fallen in some sort of a loop hole........i dont know, i'm not a lawyer, just a guess

10/28/2001 9:07:54 AM

Farmington, Utah

He may have gotten permission from Howard Dill or is going to danate the proceeds to A Growers Organization. I don't think you can call this as a collection(collectables). Collectables don't propogate. If there are any lawyres out there please give us some kind of input. This is my first year of serious seed searching and it's been fun. Seeing this seems to take away from what pumpkin growing is all about. I know how to make them collectables, forward them through the DC post office for irradiation, then it will be a true collection. I would also like to hear from Paul H. on this. I admire his opinions on these topics.

10/28/2001 10:02:07 AM

Rexburg, Idaho

An interesting move. Too bad he's leaving, his 825.5 has been one of the most sought after seeds in this hobby.
As far as the collection goes I think it is his to do with as he wants. He came about all his seeds fairly. Certainly Howard Dill and Ray Waterman shouldn't be too concerned because the Mark selling his seeds. In general, the people buying seeds from them are not the same one's who will be willing to put up the money required to buy this kind of collection.

10/28/2001 10:22:16 AM

canal winchester ohio

Brian's right this will take no business from Howard or Ray , because their customers are your average hope to get a 300lber grower who found their site.
The person who ends up buying this probably has the contacts to get most of his or her seeds free as do most of us do but will look at this as a way to get a jump. Or a orginization may buy it to raffle or auction them off to raise money for their group. which in turn is ok.
I don't think Mark is doing this to get rich.
Look at the other alternative, if he post on the Mallorn that he is done raising AG's could you imagine all the e-mails he would be overrun with. I wouldn't want that hassle.
This way it's done & overwith.
That's just my 2 cents worth.....Paul

10/28/2001 10:49:04 AM

canal winchester ohio

Hey Ken , by the way thanks for the kind words........Paul

10/28/2001 10:51:18 AM

Farmington, Utah

Paul, that puts it in a good perspective. Plus, look at all the monies he spent in acquiring these seeds. Thanks for the response.
Kenny

10/28/2001 11:03:43 AM

Choctaw, OK

paul...i agree with you, nicely stated. I do hope he decides to give some of the money to our orangization here in WI, CWPG. but i guess it is up to him.....he really knows how to grow melons and cantaloupes....he seems to have a lot of luck with those, part of the reason he has quit AG growing. I do wish he would have handed down his colletion to me!! lol. The only seeds in there i wanted were the 825's and that 801!!

case

10/28/2001 12:24:35 PM

Choctaw, OK

I just checked and his auction is no longer listed......i wonder what is up with that? He might have changed his mind...who knows

case

10/28/2001 12:26:49 PM

Choctaw, OK

nevermind, it is still up, at $500.

10/28/2001 12:31:19 PM

Pulaski Tn [email protected]

everytime i hear of somebody paying megabucks for a seed or seeds i always think... what if they are just run of the mill seeds and the people are calling them something else?? heck i've looked at some of my seeds and they sure look alot like some of them 2&3 hundred dollars seeds to me...

10/28/2001 12:52:16 PM

canal winchester ohio

That's why when I trade seeds I only try to deal with people I've been in contact with for awhile. And I advise anyone else to do the same. It easy to be "had" if you don't keep your guard up. But on the whole there are only 3 or 4 on this whole site I wouldn't trade with. you are all good people.......Paul

10/28/2001 1:00:48 PM

Connecticut

Well said

10/28/2001 1:27:42 PM

North Ga

What's up with that bidding anyway? I see 2 names. One of them is on the bidding history 7 times all about a minute apart. Looks strange to me.

10/28/2001 2:53:43 PM

Connecticut, USA

Probably an auto-outbid.

10/28/2001 3:59:42 PM

North Ga

John,
In other words. He wants the seed collection BAD? I don't know any thing about online auctions or punkin"seed. Would these seeds be good to get?
Pappy

10/28/2001 4:48:15 PM

canal winchester ohio

Two things,
Yes they would be good to get.
But remember there are also good "free" ones out there...........Paul

10/28/2001 4:55:19 PM

North Ga

Why are some of these seeds so special though? If all Ag's came from the same parents would'nt they all have the potential of being the 2000#er?
Pappy

10/28/2001 5:12:20 PM

canal winchester ohio

Pappy their just like good hunting dogs , good stock produces good pups, bad stock produces a sign in your front yard that says ""free puppies"".....lol.....Paul

10/28/2001 5:16:27 PM

North Ga

Now you're talkin' Paul. I see what you mean. Thank- you
Pappy

10/28/2001 5:40:15 PM

Greencastle, PA

is that $500 for a seed or the whole collection, if it's for each seed that's really expencive. and no, it's not me.
Tom

10/28/2001 6:30:20 PM

Farmington, Utah

Now it's $510.00 for the whole collection. The reason for all the first bids was that there was a minimum that had to be met. So every time Wayne bid it wasn't enough to meet the reserve minimum, so he bid in increments till he meet that minimum. The minimum was not disclosed in this case.

10/28/2001 7:02:19 PM

Pulaski Tn [email protected]

or i could be he kept bidding until he got the high bid...i've had people on my auctions bid 30 or 40 times .50 at a time until they had the high bid

10/28/2001 7:23:37 PM

Webster, NY

I know there is big money out there for the biggest pumpkins, but $500 for a few seeds really does seem a bit pricy. Even if they are the "best" seeds. There are just too many nice folks out there who are willing to let you have some quality seeds for the price of a bubble pack. I my case, I'm having fun growing them, learning and listening to other growers tell there stories.

10/28/2001 7:27:03 PM

Long Island,New York

I am "fairly" active in the seed trade thingy and for those who don't know whats going on here's the deal :The 723 Bobier seed has produced 7 pumpkins over 1000 lbs in the last two years.It is probably the best seed currently known.The 3-825Shymanskis are very desireable for breeding or crossing and "shy" genes are evident in many big seeds today.The 801.5stelts is highly sought after and was the 723bobier of 1999's growing season.The 2-940Momberts...well, it grew the world's biggest and a few other monsters.Look for this one to disappear from available circulation.The 616corkum is the second best squash seed ever...maybe the first..we'll know in a couple years. The 914 is a hit or miss seed but its been hitting big lately.The bobier and stelts alone are worth the 500 bucks in my opinion.Last year at the auctions for clubs, the 801stelts sold for 250.00,275.00...the 723 went for almost 300 bucks last year...cant get them this year.A stelts went for 300last year out west.825's go at auction for over 100.And thats not even considering the vast amounts of other seeds in this collection. Granted, people pay freely when supporting a club....but for the guy who has got to have the best and cant find it,wont wheel and deal, or simply doesnt have the time this may be the way to go.When a broadway play and dinner for two is over 400 bucks....a whole season's enjoyment, a chance at "stardom and 1000plus" and a legacy if the seed is successful is a bargain at 600 bucks. Thats the view from here.....Glenn

10/28/2001 8:21:07 PM

Liverpool , England

Yo Glenn,
up to 610 bucks now...I personaly think it will crack $1000 before the deadline.

Alun

10/28/2001 8:30:14 PM

Long Island,New York

Unless there's something I'm missing, I would expect this to finish up around 1400-1600bucks.....seeds eventually to be split among a couple of growers....we'll sit back and watch...the economy is a little rough, and Geneva got all the money so its anyone's guess !......G

10/28/2001 8:39:03 PM

South Hill, Virginia

I don't anything about the people involved so I would rather comment on this in general. I was always under the understanding that these seeds could not be sold without permission. I assumed this was true because they are always given away so freely. I'm sure many nice seed collections are composed of these free seeds and were given to the grower with the assumption that they would be grown and not sold. If I was given something under this pretense, and no longer had use for it, I would return it to the kind soul who gave it to me.

10/28/2001 9:03:21 PM

Down Stream

Hey I just Pulled a seed out of my pumpkin that looks to be a 200 dollar seed. But will sell for 100.

10/28/2001 9:24:24 PM

Farmington, Utah

I thought I would share a view I am starting to agree with from one of the big boys I've been emailing back and forth with. He said that this is profiting from the generosity of other growers and not to forget the legalities of Howard Dill and Family. Like he said, they give the seeds out of kindness, not for someone to profit from it. It's an insult to the growers generosities. If other people with seed collections start doing this than the generosities from the growers will cease and the only seed given out will be amongst the big boys. Forget the little people.
Now my point: If it wasn't for the generosity of other growers, Mark would not have this collection of seeds. I could understand if he was asking for the best price for any seeds he actually purchased, that would be legal and moral. To profit from the generosity of other growers, now that in my opinion is not morally right. I'm sure that a lot of the growers, that out of the generosity in their heart gave Mark seeds are pretty upset and disappointed. I know this to be true because he received seeds from this grower I've been talking with. It's a slap in the face to these growers.
Let's all just keep agreeing that what Mark S. is doing is just fine, then we will all see the seeds given to us from growers cease.
Forget the legalities, soon people will be getting seeds, not to grow, but to collect to see which ones in the future are of any value. Than sell them for the best price. Hmmm, ticket scalping/seed scalping, at least the ticket scalpers purchased the tickets.
Kenny Blair

10/28/2001 10:24:20 PM

Deer Park WA

Hi Gang, Before spending your lifes savings I would say don't forget why you grow these monsters. I have been personaly cross pollinating seeds from 1000# plus pumpkins into the 98 810# Dill strain now for three seasons. Go with the plant you know, it has become aclimated to your season/conditions and all Atlantic Giants can trace their heritage back to Mr. Howard Dills origional strains.
$500. Bucks for a Hybred seed? give me a break, I realize we only have a limited number of seasons in each of us, but it has taken me years to get my dirt to turn in to soil! Knowing your specimins indivudual traits and maximizing them will make you a world champion.

10/28/2001 10:49:35 PM

Herndon, VA

Just to give my .02, I agree with the previous post. It doesn't seem right to sell a collection of seeds that others have given freely. It's a slap in the face to those growers, plain and simple.

If this is the way it's going to be, people will start collecting seeds for the sole purpose of auctioning them on Ebay. Most of which, probably won't even be growers but instead just people interested in making a few bucks. Then we can all forget about sending bubble packs because everyone will be in it for the money.

It seems to me that this would be against the PVP, but I guess time will tell. --Bruiser

10/28/2001 11:00:23 PM

Greencastle, PA

$610 is freakishly expencive, not to mention illegal. Mark is a heavy hitter and should know that this is not right or fair to other growers, esspecially the ones that gave him those seeds. I think that the people paying $610 for it are also breaking the rules of the PVP by supporting the selling of atlantic giant seeds. Just my 2 cents.
Tom

10/28/2001 11:32:35 PM

western Kentucky

R y'all ready for my opion, here it is ..... hope u like my opinionative speech :)

I think that everyone is makin' too many assumptions... we don't know the who is buying the seeds (like Paul mentioned, a organization may buy them and raffle them to make money for their group), we don't know what Mark's intentions are...But i do know that if he is like most of us growers...he isn't in it for the money...

I think if Mark does intend to profit then he is doing EVIL... that isn't right. But I don't know, and neither do y'all... i don't think any of ur opions r wrong, but i don't think any r correct either. We have based this whole conversation on our assumptions and opinions. I think before we make anyone mad or falsely accuse someone of doing the devils work we should slow down our pace, and try to figure out the facts. We need to know the situation from Mark's perspective and the buyers!

Until I have the facts u will not see my opinion on whether what Mark is doing is right or wrong. I can not judge someone based on a single action if i know absolutely nothin about them.

But then again this is only an opinion from a 16 year old child..... disreguard it if u must.

By posting this this... i am just trying to keep people open minded to the situation, and i don't intend to make anyone mad. If I have offended anyone... i implore ur forgiveness.

Justin

P.S. if u disagree with me please fill free to tell me...

10/29/2001 12:50:28 AM

western Kentucky

oh, that is feel* not fill sorry...

10/29/2001 12:54:02 AM

Webster, NY

Bob (18), you're 16? Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. I would hope that people won't get made when they hear others opinions. Everyone is entilted to there own opinion and being able to express them is what this country is all about. Sooner or later we will find out what this is all about. My opinion, however, is still, $600 is a lot of money. (maybe because I don't have it too spend anyway I want).

10/29/2001 8:54:09 AM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

If you guys want to know the truth, trading seeds is no more legal than sellings seeds. "The Plant Variety Protection Act prohibits the sale or transfer of any protected variety". Kind of like the Napster issue. The legal aspects are very fuzzy.

10/29/2001 11:00:03 AM

Farmington, Utah

I talked to Danny Dill today about Mark S's collection. He said what Mark S. is doing is illegal. We also talked about seed trading and even though it is not legal by PVP, the Dills have never sued anybody for this illegal action(tradind seeds). The Dills have been very kind to us in the giant pumpkin growing hobby. If people keep abusing this issue by selling seeds illegally then things could change. Danny was very disappointed to hear what Mark was doing. Again, I state not considering the legalities, it is a strong issue about morals. So the few of you who think this is OK., that's your opinnion, but if stuff like this continues, think about how fast the Dill's could shut all of this down(giving seeds, trading seeds, allowing some organizations to auction seeds). The Dills are very fine people. Let's don't push things!!!

10/29/2001 6:02:50 PM

Webster, NY

I'm no lawyer, but I'm a bit confused. If, for instance I buy a seed from Howard Dill and grow a pumpkin. I now have many seeds, that I can't sell or give away because he has the rights to these seeds. If I use them, wouldn't I then be responsible to pay royalities for any seeds I then use from that pumpkin? How does all that work legally????? If that is the case, then they are very generous for letting everyone participate in this hobby.

Another case, if I sell someone a new breed of dog that gives birth to puppies of the same breed, that I've patented, are the rights to the puppies mine or can they do with the puppies what they want? again I don't know the laws. Thanks for any opinions.

10/29/2001 6:47:19 PM

Long Island,New York

My post above about the seeds, thier percieved values etc... are based upon actual auctions at the OVGPGA, PGPGA, and PNW seed auctions in 2000, and 1999. I did not say I agree with what Mark is doing...I didn't say I didn't agree.I am not saying how I feel, but if you would allow me to be "argumentative" and a "devil's advocate" I have these comments: I speed when I drive to work everyday-what does that say about my morals? The Dill's couldn't shut this down if they wanted to....its too big. They sell out of seeds very early on in the season and couldn't keep up with any demand at all. He may have originated the seed,strain,variety, whatever , but its the general public and grower's like yourself that have made the seed what it is today. The Canadians have been selling seeds from thier pumpkins for years. (There's no PVP in Canada ).
If I TRADE a seed of mine for a seed of yours...or swap this years seeds for your seeds from this year...is that "the generosity of the grower"? Mark S had a big seed...the 825.5....it would come as no surprise if these bigtime seeds he's selling off came about by swapping or trading of his 825shymanski seed. If I swap my bike for your sled and then sell the sled---what rights do you have to be upset? Why would this be any different to the seed grower?
I have not neccessaarily expressed my opinions here...just some thoughts that have come up in private conversations I've had....I thought they would be interesting topics to discuss here......G

10/29/2001 7:09:21 PM

Tipp City, Ohio

Since I was a first time grower of these Giants, I was did not know that these AG had a lot of legallity behind them. So I called the seed company that I purchased my "catalog" seeds from. They said that if it was illegal to sell the fruits or the seeds from the AG that they would have to state that in their catalog. They sell pounds of these seeds to commercial growers and what do they do with all of the pumpkins they get? Their catalog states that their seed is from the Howard Dill Strain.

10/29/2001 8:28:14 PM

Tipp City, Ohio

What about someone making Pumpkin pies out of an AG. A friend of my wife's did, and made 45 pies out of one. They made $5.00 a pie, would they have to pay royalties as well? Tom

10/29/2001 8:34:29 PM

Ga.

It's getting awful confusing,,,

10/29/2001 9:26:17 PM

Greencastle, PA

I thought the PVP was just for the seeds. Howdens are PVP seeds, but they are the most popular commercial pumpkins. Can somebody clear this up a little for me? Thanks,
Tom

10/29/2001 10:01:16 PM

Omaha, Nebraska

These kids Nowadays :)

10/29/2001 10:30:22 PM

Deer Park WA

My opionin is this, I purchased my origonal seed from Mr. Dill, I have since freely "given away" hundreds of his pumpkins off spring seeds. This has promoted our hobby and made many folks, both young and old smile. I think it is unfortunate that so many people can't see past the money thing, and appreciate the wonderful gift that was given to us. ASK PERMISSION before you SELL any Dill's Atlantic Giant Seed, wether you grew it, or some one else did. It is a Patented variety, respect that, weither we have a Trade agreement with Canada or not. It is all about respect, and values. Just my opionion God Bless us all.....

10/29/2001 10:59:24 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Here is good link to explain PVP http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Resources/Vendors/Seed/RSI/Producers.html

10/30/2001 12:10:53 AM

Puyallup, WA

I find it very interesting that no one is asking "why" Mark is quitting! A man who has done this for as long as he has usually has a reason for suddenly quitting....and it is usually because somebody has "upset" him!
Mark's "in your face" attitude makes it clear to me that he is upset about something...any ideas?

10/30/2001 1:25:51 AM

Wow It's up to $710.00 way more than I would pay for 431 seeds.
jdboy

10/30/2001 9:07:44 AM

Choctaw, OK

Mark just thinks he can't grow big pumpkins anymore in his soil....this year, he was looking to get over his pb of 825 (825 shymanski) and he did not get even close to that and he grew the 846 calai and 616 corkum (and other good ones).he says he has better luck with cantaloupe and watermelon and is going to focus on those. That is what he told me. I am not going to ask him about the issue of selling his seeds(and havn't at all), i do not want any part of it....his choice to go against the law, or whatever, is his decision and whatever consequences come it it, then he must be willing to deal with it if they come up.... just like how glenn says he speeds going to work every day, i also do that to going to school everyday.

Case

10/30/2001 11:08:48 AM

Greencastle, PA

I think that Mark, being an experienced grower and heavy hitter, should know better than to proffit off of Atlantic Giant seeds. I would think that the little people would be the ones widing up selling them and not the famus growers, not that any of us sell seeds, I'm just saying that out of all growers Mark should be one of the last to start selling these seeds.
Tom

10/30/2001 4:48:43 PM

Deer Park WA

It is the epitomy of "Selling Out".

10/30/2001 8:54:16 PM

Puyallup, WA

Well said, GADS!!

10/30/2001 9:30:57 PM

Tipp City, Ohio

I just checked online about the Howden pumpkins on the USDA-AMS PVP act. The Howdens Certificate expired on 5/31/1994. Dill's Atlantic Giant will expire on 5/30/2004.


Also, On the Actual Law of PVP Part K section 2541 "Infringement of Plant Variety Protection"
(e) Private noncommercial Uses
It shall not be an infringement of the rights on the owner of a variety to perform any act done privately and for noncommercial purposes.

The site is http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/7/ch57.html

I hope this helps to all. Since I'm a Stay at home Dad and the kids and wife is asleep, I needed something to do to pass some time till next spring. Tom

11/1/2001 11:21:55 PM

Ga.

Tom,,does your wife get mad at you for playing on the pc during the day??Mine gets pi**ed ,,,especially if I dont go to bed when she does,,lol...

11/2/2001 8:40:51 AM

North Ga

Jeff,
Only here in the south do we get married that young. I imagine Tom can only get on the puter during the day. Bedtime at 8:00 PM sharp!!!

11/2/2001 8:51:11 AM

Tipp City, Ohio

Jeff, Since my wife is working and expecting our fourth in April, she is tired at night and goes to bed earlier than I do. During the day I occasionally get online to check mail then just surf at night after I read my kids a book that they each pick for the night. Almost all of October we read books on Pumpkins, bats, spiders and other Fall related books.

11/2/2001 8:56:17 AM

Mid Michigan

I'm with Bantam.........as a 1st year grower i never had an inkling that there were legalities over big pumpkins until right now! The thought never really entered my mind.
I'm thankful to Bob W. for sending me some of his seeds to start with last spring, and i hope none of this crap ruins it for any new growers to get seeds for next year.
Are we all doomed because of all this, or is everything getting blown out of proportion??
Cuzbiker

11/2/2001 9:18:29 AM

Tipp City, Ohio

I think this is being put way out of proportion. I had too much fun trying to get a big pumpkin and I felt a damper when hearing for the first time about PVP. But if you have less than 5 acres of Atlantic Giants, you are considered a private non-commercial individual(look at previous post for USDA PVP Act website). So if anyone wants to trade or give their seeds to someone who will PLANT and GROW that seed, then feel free to do so. Tom

11/2/2001 8:01:21 PM