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[email protected]

Alan's last fruit got me thinking.

I have an 842 Eaton in the patch that has split on the stem end at least once a week now for the past 5 weeks. But due the thickness in this area, no split has breached the cavity & all have healed. Even the one that is .75" deep is now dry & sound.

How hard would it be for us to start breeding for blossom end thickness?

If in addition to weight & OTT EST we were to also measure & record the blossom end thickness at the time we're collecting seeds, & post this data somewhere in a retrievable format such as here or AGGC, then breeding decisions can be made that would favor thickening the weakest link in the growth chain.

I think most growers who are present at the end of the road for a big one will observe & comment on blossom end thickness. Good growers probably make mental notes to themselves for future use. But why can't this data be stored for breeding purposes somewhere?

To me it seems logical to put extra energy into the weakest part of an Atlantic Giant.

I understand that the biggest fruit that do make it without splitting can be used exclusively in breeding if a grower makes that decision. But look at all the people who grow DSQ fruit just because it was heavy. 1458

Would it not be advantageous if instead of the black & white (split/no split) decision, we began to track & select for breeding only those fruit (or at least consider) that demonstrated unusually think blossom ends?

I'm sure that over the years there have been plenty of 800lb+ fruit that had very think BEs but the thickness wasn't measured & the data is now lost to all but the person who retrieved the seeds.

Just a quick caliper check of the thinnest area would be good data.

Or am I all washed up & thicker shells crack worse due to low elasticity?

Thoughts or comments?

8/26/2004 9:03:55 AM

Md/ Usa

the real question is splitting a genetic trait or is it determined by growing conditions.

8/26/2004 9:38:57 AM

[email protected]

Probably a little of both. I think environmental factors cause genetic traits (both good & bad) to express themselves.

Outside of using Ultrasound or portable X-ray equipment in the patch when making fruit selection, this is probably the most realistic means to help "breeder growers" make sound decisions that will help advance the growth of our hobby.

8/26/2004 9:50:39 AM

Cologne / Germany

Many splits reported here in the 2004 diarys so far. All happening during unusual cold and rainy weather during peak growth as far as I read. That could be blamed on the growing (weather) conditions in my opinion no matter if some plants are considered to have a genetic tendency to split. Other "veggies" tend to split during heavy summer rain as well.

8/26/2004 9:59:54 AM

Indiana

Steve,
The genes already exist. I havent split a blossom end since 2002.

Tom

8/26/2004 10:25:50 AM

[email protected]

Tom,

The 501? I wanna grow that thing. I saw this morning where the 538 split. Bummer.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=26817


I'm sorry for your loss. Now will you measure the thickness at the point this one split?

The point of this thread is to get more people doing what you have done I guess. Or at least empowering them to if they choose.

8/26/2004 10:49:54 AM

nothing's 100%, even genes. I'm not ripping on the 501 here, but just using it as an example. If you take a look at all the 501 fruit ever grown, and then take a look at MY 501 fruit, you'll know what I'm talking about. genetic freaks happen. maybe it was partly the weather this year, probably, because everything was related to the weather this year. but if that same shape difference can occur (no matter what it was caused by), i'm sure blossum end variances can occur as well.
tom--- that doens't mean anything unless all the other growers growing the same seeds as you haven't split their blossum ends either.

8/26/2004 2:28:16 PM

Indiana

Steve,
The 538 didnt split the blossom. It was a rather stupid mistake I made. The temperatures have been less than ideal to say the least. I have been covering the fruit every night with carpet pad. Well, the coldest night got down to 43, and that night I messed up covering the 2 best fruit. My best and Dad's best. Air was able to get in under the pad, and the next morning I noticed that one part of the fruit was 60-70 degrees, and 2 inches away it was 50 degrees. Well, right on that spot on both of the fruit a nasty rib tear formed within 2 days, and within 6 days mine had split. Dads...I dont know if it split it sure looked like it was the start of one, but it was covered with Grafting wax so who knows we'll find out come October.

How come Brigitte dont believe me that her 501 isnt a genetic problem...LMAO

8/26/2004 4:49:25 PM

Choctaw, OK

I think that shape has alot to do with blossom end splits. We could all sit here and argue why they might occur and many possible reasons could be brought forth. I think shape and how the fruit grows in relation to its shape. A fruit the grows like a balloon will put stress on the blossom end where its growing the least. Any one can blow up a balloon and get the idea I am talking about.

I would like to grow a fruit that is low to the ground, round and grows outward on the sides more than it grows tall like a balloon. From my experience, i have not see a blossom end split from east to west...they are usually running in the general direction of north and south on a fruit(up and down if you prefer to refer to it that way). Also, i would want to grow a fruit that has no blossom end at all. The meaning of that is no white ring, or as small of a ring as possible. I think those fruit tend th ahve thicker blossom ends, if they are not sinking inwards as in the case of Alan Nesbitt's 723 in his growers diary.

Thats my opinion, and i am sure there is much more to blossom end splits than what i think could be a cause.

Case

8/26/2004 6:45:51 PM

Massillon, Ohio

brig: tom will back the 501 till he dies, but dont worry you arent alone; mine is the smallest of my 4 main fruit right now. not doing squat. getting picked sunday because of it for the fair !!

maybe he slipped us fakes 'cause we're girls and he was nervous about what we could do with the real thing !! ;)


lol

8/26/2004 8:29:47 PM

New York

I think it's a genetic trait thats brought out by enviromental factors. Had I not pushed the plant, perhaps the pumpkin would now be at 750 and we wouldn't be talking about this example. I'm not willing to accept that and will always push them hard....I get what I ask for and have to live with it.
It's interesting to note that of the 7 I've now lost of 9....
3 were stem splits
2 were blossom splits
2 were dill ring splits
There's no particular trend here in terms of location. The glaring thing that stands out is 5 of these fruit were 845's and 723's. This tells me it's definately a genetic trait that I'm helping to bring out. The obvious is to alter my growing style... or grow a new line of seed that perhaps can handle the stress better. I'll be looking for some new seeds.
Another thing I would like to know is the ideal fruit temp during peak growth. I'll build protective houses over the fruit at a controlled temperature if this means more stability during high risk day's.

8/26/2004 10:13:03 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

The spare plant Brigitte gave us looks like Joe Ailts pumpkin from last year just 500lbs lighter :) So unless Tom knew Brigitte would pick the fatter plant...Hmmmmm on second thought I would not put it passed him...lol

8/26/2004 10:36:38 PM

[email protected]

I'm beginning to think that temperature flux, range, & distribution are critical. Humidity is probably a large factor as well.

It figures that I developed & built a sophisticated thermostatically controlled misting system just in time for the coolest CT summer in recent history. Then I overwrote the program late in the day to relieve the vine while the sun was catching & beating down on our now split stem end.

Random thoughts based on this years observations:

>>70F nightly low rising gradually & holding for at least 5 hours at 85F.
>>Humidity at the fruit of at least 80% is probably better than less.
>>Calcium wraps don't work well on depressed blossom ends since direct contact is difficult.
>>Every effort to avoid extremes of light exposure, humidity changes & heat is probably worth while.

8/26/2004 10:53:52 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Here is an interesting bit of information I gathered from the 700 pound club 2003 chart from Marv Hicks:

There were 28 EXH fruits with % to chart info. Out of the 28 listed EXH's :

19 fruits were over the chart with an ave. of +9.2 %....
9 fruits were under the chart with an ave. of -5.5 %...
Overall of those 28 fruits, the % to chart ave. was +5.2 %

This is a good example that pumpkins can be thick walled, but still split anyway. Thickness of fruits may be actually be a reason why they split, according to the 28 recorded 2003 listed fruits... Not what I was expecting to find!

8/27/2004 12:40:51 AM

[email protected]

This is why I think the physical thickness is more important than the thinking of this thread's new direction would imply.

My point is thickness at the blossom end versus thiskness at the midsection.

Heavy to the tape OTT is mostly meat in the shoulders. This can lead to unusual stresses on the thinner areas of the bottom.

Perhaps more important than actual blossom end thickness would be continuity of thickness. By that I'm implying that a fruit with uniform thickness in all (or most) areas would be least likely to split. And fruit exhibitting this trait would best be indicated & bred for this reason.

8/28/2004 12:39:06 AM