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Wichita, KS

I have a real estate agent friend who owns 17 acres of land next to the freeway. The county initiated a hold on developement through that stretch of freeway shortly after he bought it, so he can't do a single profitable thing with it... except maybe grow some crops of sumthin. The county is calling this stretch of highway a "scenic corridor."

I have been toying around with the idea of renting it from him to grow AGs, and start a line breed experiment. The experiment could never be complete, since 5% of the second generation would be impossible to plant (too many seeds), but the procedure could at least be streamlined to fit the 17 acres. I don't know of anybody who has tried this before. I haven't done all the math, or checked with the county for the water usage permits and such, but its worth a closer look to me. Since I sold my business and have gone back to school, this is a window of opportunity for me to do such a thing.

Question: is there anybody out there already growing acres of AGs that could help me crunch numbers on things like the cost of fertilizers, pesticides, irrigation, fencing, all the expenses I haven't thought of, ways to keep expenses down, etc. I am familiar with running a business, but not with running a farm, so I would like some expert advice before I commit to such an endeavor.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Toby

8/18/2004 12:11:06 PM

Wichita, KS

FOrgot to mention, I would also appreciate some advice on bulk pumpkin sales, too. It would be necessary to have some information on income if I am going to write up a business plan. That profit thing... you know.

8/18/2004 12:15:02 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Interesting idea... I would just add this: It's not
necessary to plant every seed. If you plant 12 to 15
from a population of 500 (or whatever) there is a 95%
likelyhood that one of those 12 or 15 will be in the
top 5% of criteria you want (probably fruit growth rate
or at least weight).

So if you can get the seeds from some already good lines
you could probably run a few breeding experiments...

Wouldn't that be a major distraction to vehicles on the
interstate??? hmmm... LOL

8/18/2004 1:07:34 PM

Puyallup, WA

Toby....you must have a thick wallet. I estimate that it would take a minimum of 10 hard-working people working full time to plant and maintain a patch that size. Even at a minimum wage, that's $1000 a day for about 90 days. The only folk I know that have that kind of money are politicans and dope dealers!!! ;>)

8/18/2004 4:48:42 PM

Vancouver, White Rock, Canada

I'd check to see if there is a market for pumpkins first, maybe you could sell them in large numbers to a farmer's market or something?

8/18/2004 5:02:03 PM

Vancouver, White Rock, Canada

Check the diary of "jos" I just looked at it, and he has acres of pumpkins, he may be able to give you some kind of an idea for larger scale growing.

8/18/2004 5:10:22 PM

Wichita, KS

Stan

My wallet is thin and actually needs replacing! :-)

Your suggestion is the kind of input I need to start with. It is the kind of thing that will work if the crop will pay off at the end of the season.

I am currently working a 4000sqft patch. It requires about 6 hours a week of my time. An acre = about 40,000sqft. if I use 13 of the 17 acres (some of the land is unusable due to a marshy area) then I have to cover 520,000 sqft.

8/18/2004 6:23:16 PM

Wichita, KS

ooops. accidentally posted.

(C0ntinued)... at my rate of work, which is super lazy slow, I have to allot for 780 manhours per week from June 1 to October 1. So, If I kicked it into high gear and spent 3 hours per week on my patch, which seems realistic to me (I spend more time on the beans and tomatoes in the far corner than on anything else), then I should be employing 9 people (other than myself) for a full time work week (40 hours). I could probably hire high school students during the summer, and I could work them on a seasonal contract to avoid workman's comp and SS tax. I calculate $720 per week for labor, 17 weeks of labor, = $12,240 for labor. So if I expect to pay $15,000 for labor during that timeframe, I should be able to budget safely.

Its the other expenses that wory me, because I have no idea how much fertilizer costs in bulk, irrigation, etc.

8/18/2004 6:37:31 PM

Wichita, KS

I skipped a step in there.

...at my rate of work***which is currently six hours per week on my 4000 sqft patch***which is super lazy slow...

8/18/2004 6:40:03 PM

[email protected]

Your friend should sue the county to buy his land back at a fair profit or else offer him a tax abatement. That aside:

Find the market first. Theme parks, Zoos, Retail Property Managers (malls), etc. If they'll commit to a contract, then you can break ground.

You need water. 13 usable acres needs about 4 acres of pathways & roads. So 9 acres cultivated will use 10.6 million gallons of water per week if it doesn't rain.

Chemical costs are no brainer easy. Labor is too.

You'd also need equipment & storage. So a steel prefab on a pad is the minimum. Figure about $60,000 for a new combination tractor/tiller/backhoe/loader. Another $30,000 for the barn if you don't need heat or sanitary facilities. Unless you can borrow/lease these & store them outdoors, then money is running off the patch quick already.

And we still haven't hired labor.

8/18/2004 7:16:08 PM

Wichita, KS

Ok. got that. Steve, what do you mean by heat facilities? The 10.6 million gallons is a must, since it never rains here. And since it never rains here, it gets hot... 15% humidity and triple digits are normal.

8/18/2004 7:26:39 PM

[email protected]

OK. No heat.

8/18/2004 7:40:11 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Rick Lingle does, but I think he's in Iraq at the present moment.

8/19/2004 12:16:05 AM

Wichita, KS

Oh, I get it. You were talking about warming things up. I'm always trying to figure out how to cool things down! :-) I missed your meaning at first, thinking you were referring to something that would keep the heat down. Sometimes I amaze myself with my own cluelessness. LOL

8/19/2004 2:18:04 AM

Wichita, KS

Hmmm. used tractor would probably do ($12,000), carport for tractor, adjacent to a 10'X14' storage shed ($5000), Oh yeah, cement foundation instead of gravel ($2000 more). $34,000 so far for labor, tractor and storage.

What other equipment would one need for such a project? A certified scale ($630 per Tom B in a recent post, but I'll just call it 1K). $35,000. What else?

8/19/2004 2:26:48 AM

[email protected]

Irrigation syste,. pumps, etc. $???
A nice 300 gal sprayer (new) is about $2900.00
PTO driven spreader (Vicon - new) is $11-1300.00
Various hand tools, tarps, clips, cords, etc. $???
Lifting ring, trailers, etc. $???

We can figure out ferts/amendments with a soil test but if you have a rough idea of pH & local deficiencies I'll ball park it by the acre. What insect & disease pests are out that way?

8/19/2004 6:16:32 AM

Wichita, KS

Ph in the area is alkaline 8-8.5.
Very high in P and K, darn near negative in N. I still haven't seen harmful insects in our area except aphids. Powdery mildew pops up every once in a while. Gophers, moles rabbits and horses (I'm not a big fan of horses, so I tend to consider them enemies of the garden). That's all I've seen in the two years I've lived here.

Irrigation system.... I don't know what's cheaper, t-tape or tubing, or even pvc. whatever is cheapest ought to work. I don't think the county will go for overhead sprinklers, though. It would be nice to rig up something I can use to water and fertilize with at the same time. Misting is a must.

I suspect that I would have to set up some sort of delivery operation, too. a lifting ring, 2 tarps, I already own the trailers.

costs are adding up. The thing that this piece of land has going for it, though is that several thousand people drive past it every day, and get a good stare. It is adjacent to the freeway exit, so it has as good an access point as most gas stations. This makes me think of vandalizm, though. Some sort of surveilance system would have to be developed. Maybe put a couple web-cams out and hook em up to BPTV? :-) (the dreaming phase is fun!)

8/19/2004 7:00:46 PM

Wichita, KS

Oh, I saw squash beetles at somebody elses patch recently. I've never seen them near my plants, but if I plant several acres, I am sure I will attract them.

8/19/2004 7:03:44 PM

[email protected]

You have to plow these fields. T-tape or drip systems would have to be removed in order to plow. For that reason alone I would use big-guns on risers on the edges running 180 degrees. For labor savings, look into the local ag-code regarding fertigation & chemigation systems. This can save a fortune in future labor expenses & isn't all that costly to install.

8/19/2004 9:09:38 PM

Deer Park WA

Robert Critchfield grows many acres of AG's in the Spokane valley every year with irrigation and fertilizers, his "field AG's" average about 200# some more some way less. These plants consume his, and his helpers entire days including weekends. Forget about line breeding acres of AG's it's impossible even with cheep labor you could not garentee pure F-1 offspring of the entire field. If you want to line breed concentrate on 4 or 5 plants, get to a pure crossed F-3 and then post about your success.

8/20/2004 1:44:23 AM

Sauk City Wisconsin

If you dont have the time or money to spend you (can!) do the same exact experiments with not much cash at all. Just plow the whole thing up.set your plants out and let mother nature do her thing.I Know you have a need for lots of water but you could allow each plant only a sertin amount of water a day or week( depending what it would take to keep them alive and growing )and you would still be able to tell what plants have better trates then others. the size of the fruit that your plants grow dosent really matter as long as each plant has the same exact growing conditions. pollination time would be busy but you and some help could just hand pollinate flowers on the main vines for a 30 day span.only allow each plant one main vine. then at a date of your choice you could cull all but the biggest fruit on each main. If you tryed to fully care for each plant it's likely that some plants will get more then others. If you planted 15 of the same seeds in this maner and noticed that 2 or 3 of them had better all around plant and fruit growth then the rest (then picked the best)that could be a wonderful seed to cross with another best of group even if these are 100 lb'ers or less. I'll tell you one thing I would love to grow a seed from a cross like this.The first year the insects shouldnt be to bad cause you'll have so much plant to go around and not many will know where your spot is.After that you could spend a bunch controlling them.I would also consider the fence idea. It would suck to have somthing mess with your one of your plants before you even new it was the best. I'v never grew in this maner so I might not know what I'm talking about but I have no cash so thats how I'de do it....Just an idea

8/20/2004 3:58:56 AM

Wichita, KS

canheat,
you have picked up on my general idea. I have considered a twist though. Labor is always a problem. In the business I recently sold, I found that labor performed to a much higher standard if I paid them on a commission. I have never heard of this being done in agriculture, but I have not been a part of the agriculture industry (I did retail book sales). If I was to divide 10 acres into 10 small parcels and contracted labor to work the plants for a percentage of the profit (say, 18%, nice and big) their acre could produce, They would be more motivated to take greater care, learn more about getting bigger fruit, etc. You see, with big pumpkins like these, they can be marketed differently than the common jack-o-lantern. if 40 plants per acre produce two 300 pound fruit each, and the going rate is $1 per pound, an acre could expect a crop worth $24,000. It would be up to the individual worker to cultivate heavier fruit, or more productive vines. Also, I think 50 plants per acre would fit nicely. So, projecting $30,000 per acre might be a little less conservative, but still seems realistic. 18% commission on that projection $5,400. That probably looks good to a high school student for a summer's work, maybe a college student, too. Flexible hours (except when pollinating), work on your tan, take home a big pumpkin in October, not bad, eh?

Like I said before, the dream phase is fun! Nothing is out of the question yet. The challenges that are posed are only there to test our problem solving skills. If getting a true F1 hybrid is seemingly impossible, then a grand plan should be devised. But we're not there yet. Gotta figure out how to make it work financially, first.

Steve, do you know a good website to look at "big-guns on risers?" I am not familiar with this terminology, but I like the cost saving idea. :)

8/20/2004 3:40:46 PM

[email protected]

Look at this flier from one of my competitors LOL. This is just one example.

Half way down on Page 5. You're looking for the one thats part # 046-360SA-14/08

Here is a link of one in operation on a movable base:

http://muextension.missouri.edu/explore/figures/eq038317.jpg

The one I have in mind can be seen at our website here:

http://www.lesco.com/Default.aspx?PageID=27&ItemNumber=007385

This one (not pictured) sells for around $100 & comes equipped with 2 replacable nozzles. One on each end. With the stock nozzles, this unit produces a 98' diameter circle at 30psi & 12.3 gpm.
At 80 psi & 20.1 gpm the circle increases to 128 feet.

The largest nozzles this particular body accepts is capable of 152' diameter circles at 80 psi & 47.5 gpm.

Needless to say, these babies can heave some water for those fortunate to have enough.

8/20/2004 7:23:01 PM

Ontario, Canada.

I met a guy from Michigan at Niagara Falls last spring. He would be the guy to talk to. I can't remember his name but I believe he was from the Ann Arbour area. Go Blue! Michigan football town.

8/21/2004 1:17:44 AM

northern indiana

I think that you will find that that many 300 to say 700 pound fruit would depress the market locally. The per pound cost wouldn't hold up unless you were shipping or delivering to a very wide area. Unless of course you could start a fad. If you could generate market demand in homeowners for large pumpkins for their halloween displays you might be able to make it work. Of course homeowners are going to be reluctant to pay hundreds of dollars for a single component of their display, especially one that would be perishable. You would know better how much people in your area are likely to accept. Not to rain on your parade but I am a person that calles em likes i see's em. One must also consider color and shape will be very important to retail customers unless the pumpkin is incredibly large and or a recordholder.
Eric

8/21/2004 10:19:56 PM

Hapdad,

You make some excellent points. I woner if a better idea might not be devoting the bulk of the acreage to growing Prizewinner Hybrids and pepo varieties and reserving only an acre of two for the AGs. The smaller varieties would be much easier to sell and would serve to provide you with the income necessary to justify the project. You can fit quite a few AGs on two acres, certainly enough to do some meaningful research if you are careful.

8/22/2004 10:15:51 AM

Wichita, KS

Eric, Agitated

good points. The patch itself right on the edge of the quickly growing Sacramento Metropolitan area, so there is easy access to lots of businesses that might consider purchasing a display pumpkin to attract foot traffic. I think you are right, though, the target market can't be regular homeowners. Most would probably not be up to the challenge of disposing of an AG on November 1st. Might be better off dividing up the acreage and planting a variety that is more marketable.

Hmmm. Its not entirely dissatisfying either. The object, of course, is to fund the experiment and pay the bills simultaneously, *while having a ton of fun*! 2(+/-) acres of AGs sound fun! I have only grown one prizewinner before, and I kept it pruned to a single vine, 15 feet long, so my experience with them is limited. So, for the sake of the dream phase, how many Prizewinners can you grow on a single plant, and how much square footage do they normally cover?

8/22/2004 10:36:50 PM

A grower down the road from me grows about 5 acres of Prizewinners every year so I have had a chance to observe them closely.

They are of course, closely related to the AGs and share their vigorous habit. You better figure on about about 300 square feet per plant. I have found them to be quite a bit more tolerable of adverse conditions than AGs and susequently require a bit less care. You can probably expect 1 to 3 100-200 pounders per plant. The pumpkins themeselves are quite beautiful, mostly round and all a deep orange with slight ribbing. They are true F1 hybrids though so you wont be able to harvest the seeds and plant them the next year if you want to duplicate the parents. They will cross with your AGs too unlike the pepos.

A bunch of Prizewinner Hybrids at a roadside stand never fails to gather attention.

You might even want to consider giving tours of your patch in the fall to further supplement your income. People always love seeing the pumpkins actually growing in the patch and most likely have never seen a giant pumpkin on the vine. You could put some hay bails on a trailer, tow it behind a tractor, and give the folks a narrated tour.

8/23/2004 7:23:23 AM