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Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

I posted this in the "2004 Selfed Or Sibb Genictics" thread, but thought such a detailed explaination should have it's own post. This is just my own theory. I welcome feedback on it if you disagree or have any knowledge which could be helpful explaining why it does what it does better than this:

8/17/2004 1:43:57 AM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

The Llyod genetic also is a good genetic to use due to it's inital gentic roots. Here is why...I hope your all ready for this explaination....LMAO

752 side:

It has no 827 in it (575 F X 742 M}, but it does have a 722 {742 F X 575 M} on the 752.8 male side. The male was a cross of the 722 X a backcross {sort of...the 717 which is off a 674... I say sort of due to the fact the 674 was crossed with a Dill genetic}. I'm at a loss as what the 613 was for it's inital genetic {Dill or Gancarz...Anyone know?}. The 613 produced the 717 which was open pollinated {and I assume might have been selfed?}

614 side:

It has a recessive green gene that was somewhat isolated from a 355 Dill, the same 355 that was the mother to the 575. The 355 was a squash, but the 575 plant had the orange trait dominate while the Neily had the green trait more. That is what male was crosses into the 752.5 {the 509 Neily}.The 935 also is a decendant of the 671 Gancarz. The 671 was from a 390 Gancarz, and a good bet would be it was a cross like the 355 X 492, meaning squash X pumpkin resulting in hybrid vigor. The Gancarz and Dill genetics were both quite isolated from each other at one time, thus making them great to cross together. The 671 in the 935 threw a green 574, then 589, then the third time an orange {recessive} trait came out on Len's 752, which he crossed with Brown's 699 plant {an offspring of 674 Waterman which is an offspring of the 472 Waterman which is an offspring of Alan's 579 which was a Dill genetic, to the best of my knowledge}.

8/17/2004 1:44:14 AM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Both the 614 and the 752 crossed together results in a very different gentic than the mostly 827/567 genetics out there.....
The 827 stuff produced a ton of offspring. The Mombert genetic {although from the 575 as well} also is another genetic different from the 935 and the 827's stuff.....
The 946.5 Geerts in the 865 is pretty much a Dill X Waterman gentic {with that damn unknown 612 Orr in it once}, so it's kinda what I'd say as an inbred gentic {all of it's parents go back to the 827 & 742}. The 567 Mombert is a 575 {F} offspring that has the isolated mystery gentic from Helmets long fruit producing genetics on the male side. The 567 does not have the 674/742 genetics in it. So,crossing the 827's offspring line with the 567's genetics created a something almost totally different than the 935. Then crossing the 865 with the 935 resulted in a somewhat hybrid cross = 827 & 567 stuff X mostly squash background stuff {with both the 865 and the 935 sharing the Craven gentics... the only common related gene}

The Knauss gentic X an isolated 723/845/ and even 846 gentic should produce some interesting offspring as well, since the 898 has different inital starting origins. A selfed 898 X a selfed, sibbed, or inbred 723/845/ 846 line should be even better. Hard to know for certain though, as the only known detail of the 898 is that it is from a Dill line. Unknown facts of where the Dill's parantage came from and what all is in the Waller make it too difficult to know how the 898 will due as a breeder.

8/17/2004 1:44:43 AM

Key West, FL

oh I get it....

8/17/2004 2:31:57 AM

Marc,

As someone with a bit of genetics background, I see nothing in your 'explanation' that well, explains anything. Additionally, the little information you've given doesnt seem to be based on anything we currently know to be fact in the world of plant breeding.

The truth of the matter is, certain combinations simply nick better than others and that is about the best 'explanation' that can be given. This is especially true in the haphazard world of AG 'breeding' as we know it.

8/17/2004 7:38:47 AM

Northeast

Is this why may 845 Bobier sib( 821 Garrell)produced some true greenies Marc?

8/17/2004 7:47:53 AM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Dave, thats probably it... anything with the Llyod stuff in it has a better chance to throw green than others. Since most all genetics come from the 355 Dill squash or Gancarz's squash line, it's alway possible to get a grennie from anything. Who knows of a 567 green offspring? Curious about that one. Dave, do you know who Helmet got his initial seeds from? Was it Dill or Gancarz or someone somewhere else?
AGitated; the main thing I am trying to point out is that the Mombert stuff, the Dill stuff, the Llyod stuff, and the Gancarz stuff are the key genetics that have been combined to make some of the best gentic seeds. Some where along the next few seasons someone will need to bring in some kind of "fresh blood" to stir up the gene pool again to top the Bobier or Calai genetics. Is that the 898, who knows, but I am sure something similar will have to be used.

" The truth of the matter is, certain combinations simply nick better than others" ... which ones do you suggest are the right ones, if mine are wrong?

Ben.... LMAO @ you.... Dimmiu

8/17/2004 10:15:59 AM

Marc,

There is no way to tell what combinations will produce pumpkins of superior size. I'm sorry but its true. I am always amazed to read posts here from people telling others what crosses to make as if they have some type of inside track on what is going to happen genetically. In a true breeding program, breeders can indeed predict phenotypes but that is through generations of careful selection in a controlled environment. AGs follow the same rules of plant science as the rest of the varieties. They are quite simple in structure actually, an open-pollinated variety. I think many folks here are going out of their way to invent all kinds of new theories but are neglecting to consider what we already know in the process. Keep it simple and move forward.

8/17/2004 10:35:34 AM

Indiana

muhahahahaha.....

Tom

8/17/2004 11:18:53 AM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Thanks for that info Madman.
I found some value in your ramble. Much more history than I knew about the Dill, Mombert & Gancarz lines.

In my opinion there IS something special about the 723/845.
How in the world can you dispute that claim when you look at the long list of progeny that these have produced?

On a related note:
Just looking a a few of the 1097 Beachys on tour it is easy to see that Lloyd genetic expressing itself there. The 723 / 845 cross is very interesting as it narrows the grandparents to 2 rather than 4. The potential for REALLY BIG is there.

I like the 845 X 898 as well - big & dense. Plenty of Hitters have already done this cross. Saw a Beautiful 1104 Hester on tour.

8/17/2004 12:40:42 PM

[email protected]

My 898 fruit is about 700 pounds right now, and is crossed with an 845. I also have an 845 fruit, crossed with the 898. I decided to cover my bases with this cross in both directions. I actually am using the 845 in my 805 cross also, which should make some awesome genetics too.

This is the earliest I have been excited about growing my seeds which are being produced right now. The only thing left to this mystery is the over the chart factor of the 845 and 898 fruits, and how many seeds will each fruit give me.

8/17/2004 5:55:58 PM

northern indiana

AGitated, surely you realize that since no AG true breeder exists then all we are left with is past and present expression of desired traits, luck and instinct.
There are however, certain lines that do express desired traits far more often than others. If one is to commit an entire season to a seed it is only logical to commit to one with a genetic background of frequent expression of desired traits. Or one with a proven performance record. The uncanny ability of some growers to pick untested seeds that produce very well and pick them with a winning gamblers consitency suggests that there is more to AG breeding than a shot in the dark. I personally believe that the best seeds of the future will come from cossing cuttings of proven performing plants. While this in no way garentees productive offspring I for one would be more inclined to dedicate a season to one of these seeds than to a seed produced by a non performing open pollenated shot in the dark.

8/17/2004 9:48:26 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Agitated; About your inital comment:

"There is no way to tell what combinations will produce pumpkins of superior size. I'm sorry but its true. I am always amazed to read posts here from people telling others what crosses to make as if they have some type of inside track on what is going to happen genetically."

Are you saying Joe Altis, Nic Welty, Tom Beachball,Glenn Andrews, Andy Wolf, Mark Shymanski, Mike Neperney, and many others who know AG genetics shouldn't suggest speak up if asked about a cross? I'm sorry to say they DO have an inside track, many of us do. We all have different thoughts on breeding, thats why its nice to get different views from others that are "genetically inclined". If I was just starting out growing, and wanted some help or advice, I'd be trying to get some info from those growers.

Your next comment:

" I think many folks here are going out of their way to invent all kinds of new theories but are neglecting to consider what we already know in the process. Keep it simple and move forward."

If not for those many folks who have went out of their way, you wouldn't have a clue how to grow them correctly! Shade cloth, misters, pumpkin shade stuctures, vine buring, vine pruning, hand pollinating, cloning, sink/source techniques, and other methods or techniques all were figured out by people who had new theories. They experimented, and figured out if their theory was correct or not. If not for that kind of thinking, we'd all be growing field sized pumpkins still. How can you say "keep it simple"? Nothing about AG's are simple! LOL! If you want simple, go turn on your victrola or console television set, listen to Perry Como or watch Andy Griffith, and don't open your mind to anything new.

8/18/2004 12:01:30 AM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

I thought the BigPumpkins.com site was here to share things with others and learn things from each other. BTW... you expressed your disagreement with me, but you side stepped my question of what you disagree about. I don't mind being disagreed with as long as your willing to share your ideas, but don't take a swing at me if you can't punch me out!
Your screen name fits you perfectly too...BTW

8/18/2004 12:02:29 AM

[email protected]

Marc,

What would you think of keeping lots of seconday & tertiary cuttings in a greenhouse? Then graft them onto available seed produced root stock several weeks before the season. These could be sold or auctioned off as "known genetic starts" to benefit the entreprenurially inclined growers association.

8/18/2004 6:56:53 AM

Marc,

You are taking this a little too personally. I am not looking for an argument, not trying to be negative, and certainly not looking to "punch" anybody out. I see nothing in my posts to indicate otherwise. I am merely expressing an educated opinion, one that carries a substantial amount of knowledge and research.

I stand by my comments. The process in which today's AGs are being "bred" is truly haphazard and doesn't seem to follow any tried and true principles of plant breeding. One can not randomly criss-cross this with that every generation and expect to produce anything but random results. Also, true breeders work with hundreds if not thousands of specimens in their breeding trials. Your theories are based on a dozen or so pumpkins raised by different people under completely variable and uncontrolled conditions. Such an environment does not support the maintenance of ANY kind of theory. The dataset is much too small and the data itself is next to worthless. At this point, telling someone that any specific cross will result in the pumpkin of their dreams is naive. If you truly want to be of service to your fellow growers, promote proper breeding techniques and education.

Selecting a quality seed today should be based on that seed's progeny history and nothing more. You can not predict what an unproven seed will produce regardless of its lineage. This was the only point I was trying to make and I believe this to be a very valuable fact to consider.

That's all I have to say on this subject. I'm sorry you were offended by my comments. Good luck in your efforts.

8/18/2004 7:10:47 AM

BTW, your screen name fits you perfectly too. ;)

8/18/2004 8:21:40 AM

[email protected]

Unfortunate but true. The only real way to line breed AG's is to plant every single seed from the chosen few fruit that demostrate the traits we're after.

Let's see....700 seeds times 500 sq ft....is only 8 acres per genetic selection....times 5% of the next selected 2100 seeds.....is only....the state of Rhode Island...no problem....LOL

8/18/2004 9:04:38 AM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

You don't need every seed, just about 12 to 15.
With that number (I think) you have a 95% chance of
getting one of the seeds from the top 5%.

One problem we have is that we get 2 or 3 seeds and
can only plant one... we have no way of knowing where
our seed fits on the bell curve. If one grower took
12 or 15 of their own stock and compared them, that
would accelerate the selection of better genes.

Someone somewhere had the "BEST" 846 or whatever seed
stock you name... but they never knew it. Maybe they were
a top grower, maybe not. They grew it and maybe they
preserved it, or maybe they crossed it with some other
seed stock and perhaps nothing was preserved for the
next generation.

But then again, I'm no expert and I'm not interested in
arguing with anyone here.

Best regards, Cliff

8/18/2004 12:56:16 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Granted, 12 to 15 is a lot. I can barely keep up with 3!

8/18/2004 12:58:58 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

I'm not offended AGitated, and that is quite correct about line breeding. All anyone can do is gather all available facts and rationalize a logical theory based on the facts that are available. I based my theory on hard evidence and growers testimony. There are genetics that do produce expected and desired results when crossed together, do a degree. There are not going to ever be "true breeding" strains out there, well, at least not anytime in the near future, but most of the seeds out of a specific genetic cross will behave similar to one another. Perhaps both of our opinions should be weighed here, and perhaps we both have some stong points to debate. I do not wish this to turn into a personal "fight discussion post", so I'll let others debate their thoughts on the matter if they desire. I apologize if I have offended you as well. I hope your season ends well, and look forward to many more discussions with you.

8/18/2004 1:06:51 PM

Long Island,New York

PumpkinFam....just wait til you see what happens in the off season....lol

8/18/2004 10:46:50 PM

Indiana

Dam! all my work done for nothing....LOL

Tom

8/19/2004 2:01:06 AM

Knopp, Germany

how does that old rock song go...."ain't seen nothin yet..."

8/19/2004 2:10:53 AM

Stouffville

I'm just looking at a picture of me beside the 612.4 Orr. It was a really nice fruit, had fairly smooth ribs and no structural flaws, yellow colour and not much cantalouping at all so it still had room to grow. Very good genetics, but back then I didn't know how to spot a good fruit when I saw one. Hindsight is always 20/20. I think I remember Norm Craven saying that it was grown from the 674.5 Waterman but don't quote me on that! In any case it was a great looking fruit which definitely hadn't reached its limit. I can't believe it and Norm's 752.8 have played such an important role in modern AG genetics. I remember seeing Norm's 752.8 in the field... I think he pollinated it pretty late (late July) and it roared past what I had growing at the time. It was a pretty smooth fruit, yellow in colour (similar to the 612.4 Orr), weighed heavy to my surprise (and annoyance at the time!) and still had a fair amount of growing room left as well; a real genetic gem.

Mike

8/19/2004 6:22:09 PM