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Atlanta, Georgia

If you are growing or have grown a 582 Hester can you tell me how the vine grew please?....whether it grew normal or if it double or flat vined for you.
I have data from the AGGC for years prior to this one so I'm mostly concerned about this year's growers or people who grew it and didn't submit data to the aggc.
I want to try to see if a hypothesis I have is true regarding AG genetics.
Thanks for any help!
Michel
P.S. Martin, I know yours is growing normally.

7/9/2004 4:56:52 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

ok, Michel.

7/9/2004 5:04:01 AM

New Hampshire

Last year-doubled This year-normal

7/9/2004 6:09:30 AM

Marshfield, Ma, USA

Both years the vine has grown normally without any signs of double or flat vining. Yellow in color, thick and heavy.

it has been a difficult plant to get pollinations to set.

7/9/2004 6:35:01 AM

Roselle, IL [email protected]

Was normal to start.Then went flat, has about 8 pumpkins on it now.

7/9/2004 7:49:31 AM

Greencastle, PA

it was double and slow growing for me until last week, now it's normal and growing faster, i even found a female flower in the vine tip so there may still be hope for it.

7/9/2004 3:04:51 PM

No Place Special

Main vine threw a double. I choose to take the back main which was normal and train it as the main. All secondaruies have been normal and the plant is around 600 sq ft at this point with three set on the main. Other than the initial double main, this plant has been great. Michel please share your findings with the rest of us. Mike Frantz

7/9/2004 3:28:39 PM

Central Mi

Main vine went flat about 3' out and got wider until I cut it and went to a secondary at about 10'. I still am waiting for a female. Todd

7/9/2004 7:10:09 PM

Atlanta, Georgia

Todd,
If my pollination sets at 10 feet then I'll cut the main right after the pumpkin anyway. There is a strong secondary coming out there that can take over if I decide to let the plant keep on growing after pumpkin set.

What I really need is more people to comment on how the vine is growing like you guys did. I'm trying to work out some statistics and probabilities about the 582 for my genetics class and wish that more people would reply just to the question of did the vine grow normal or double.

Thanks to everyone so far!

Brett, if you're listening could you give some input about how yours have grown and approximately how many total seeds the 582 had please? Thanks!
Michel

7/10/2004 6:51:30 AM

Sterling, MA

Last year flatvined big time, then it split into two vines, I terminated one and then let the other become the primary. Never was able to get a female to develop beyond the size of a marble. Pulled plant.

This year, major double vine.. grew a rosette at the end of the primary vine and the main would not grow any further in length. I had enough, and culled it early. I had another plant in that hill waiting to take over. Thank goodness I did.

Dave

7/10/2004 11:13:57 PM

Atlanta, Georgia

Thanks Dave!

7/11/2004 3:34:46 AM

Sydney, Australia

582 doubled for me from the start, split into 2 doubles, cut one then split again. One was a normal vine, continued out, couldn't set a fruit on it. Will cull mutants in the future. Probably plant 2 seedlings per site from now on.
Ben

7/12/2004 12:38:20 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

I will definitely plant two seedlings per hill next year too Ben!

It's always tough to cull one and lose that seed but that is WAY better than losing a great patch altogether.
I was thinking about that the other day too...

7/12/2004 2:40:41 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

I won't be pollinating my 419 Pukos nor 790 Daletas with the 582 but I will try to pollinate the 582 with the 419 or 790. Too bad the awesome weight potential of the 582 is genetically mingled with the tendency to double vine...

From what I understand If I pollinate the 582 with either the 419 or the 790 (assuming that they don't have the double-vining gene) then the resulting F2 pumpkins have about a 25% chance of not splitting and a 25% chance of having the gene to grow up to 1458 lbs. and only a one in 16 chance of being 1458 and not double-vining. Like many people know here it is truly a crap-shoot to predict which seeds will be good.

It would be interesting to go back thru the history of the 582 to see where this trait originated but we are not keeping that kind of data on pumpkins yet to my knowlege and I think that future or present pumpkin breeders need this information to really start breeding for certain phenotypes successfully or at least more quickly than right now.

Chime in please genetics experts!
Michel

7/12/2004 2:51:25 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

So far 9 doubles and 3 regular vines.
That's approximately 75% chance to double and 25% chance to grow normally.
I originally thought it to be the other way around so I'll have to recalculate the chances in my previous post but hopefully will get more replies for both flat and double vines first.

Thanks a million everyone so far and if you know someone who grew it that didn't post, please get the info and post it here or ask them to reply please.

Michel

7/12/2004 2:55:49 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

Darrell Roulst emailed me that his started to double and corrected itself but I'll still count it as a double so it 10 to 3 now.

7/12/2004 3:09:27 AM

Colo.Spgs.CO. Pikes Peak Chapter @ [email protected]

Michel,I am leaning toward the side that a double vine may in fact NOT be a genetic factor of the plant that is exibiting these flat/ double vine traits. In fact it may be caused / induced / and or be pronounced by the environmental factors that this particular plant is being subjected to, such as climate, soil, weather, nutrients, sunlight exposure, moisture levels, and all other factors of it's growing conditions since the germination of the seed. To prove this theory otherwise would take a very extra-ordinary attempt at creating totally a controlled enviroment for many plants of the same seed stock, which is beyond what I personally am capable of, so therefore the theory will always be split on opinions, IS IT GENETIC- VS. -OR IS IT ENVIRONMENTALY INDUCED, I tend to believe it is the the environment the plant is subjected to from the time of germination, and that the fact it was abnormal DOES NOT automatically classify that particular plant to be a bad genetic... Only time and much research will bring out the full story on this very difference of opinion touchy subject... Thanks JK.

7/12/2004 3:19:53 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

You sure are up early/late JK.
Is your last name Kennedy?...

I thank you for your opinion which might possibly be entirely correct. If it is, then we'd need to start recording much more information about each plant we grow and that would only provide sketchy information at best since things like pollination temperature is not a piece of data that the average grower is currently monitoring.

Nothing short of a large scale study of ag's in the field could produce the answers for the hobby grower but gene mapping of ag's is a more reasonable solution which can be conducted in a lab. I read in a scientific journal that some Chinese scientists are attempting it but I have to try to remember where I saw it. If they can trace the genotypes to the resulting phenotypes then the battle is won and it would be a lot more reasonable to ask for support from a state-side lab or university or ag research station to get involved in the experiment.
Talk to ya later!
Michel

7/12/2004 3:33:05 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

I think that it's a monumental task to try to work in AG genetics since AG's are not a very good food source and that is the main focus of agricultural science.

Maybe we should start sending out free ag seeds to researchers around the world to see if they'll accidently get HOOKED on growing ag's...ha ha!

It might actually be the best way to the speediest understanding of the ag genome...

7/12/2004 3:36:57 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

I'd like to know how Geoffrey Pierce's plant that grew his 1186.6 grew, and Gary Miller's 890.

If anyone has their contact info I'd appreciate it.

I've emailed everyone else listed at the aggc who grew the 582 except for the people who already replied.

OOPS JF I emailed you too even though you replied here.
Sorry,
Michel

7/12/2004 4:02:42 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

JK,
If it's environmental in ag's then we should also see the same amount of double vining in every ag seed shouldn't we, since the difference in enviromental factors for people that are growing the 582 is probably the same as the difference in environmental factors for people growing other seeds...

I know it's a lame argument, but it's an argument for the genetic theory.
Best regards,
Michel

7/12/2004 4:43:17 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

I remember that Brett Hester mentioned in the chat room sometime last winter that the 582 plant that produced the 1186 Pierce had a flat/double vine.
I believe he also mentioned that the pumpkin was grown on a side vine after the main had been cut off, but I'm not sure about that.
Martin

7/12/2004 7:06:35 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

Martin,
If that's true about the side vine producing a big one then maybe I still have a chance to grow a big one.
There are 4 pumpkins that could take on the main vine between 9 and 11 feet. One was pollinated on the 9th and two will be pollinated today and the last one tomorrow.
The secondaries have seemed to pick up some speed since I cut the main vine now even though it's cold and down to about 10 degrees at night.
Michel

7/13/2004 1:46:08 AM