Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

ha ha ha, that is funny...!

I think there is a genetic component to the double/flat
vine problem. It seems to run in certain seed stocks.

If it were me, I'd make an effort to keep such issues out
of seed distribution. That is, I'd probably roast seeds
from such a plant (not really, AG seeds don't have the
flavor like Jack 'O Lanterns do) rather than distribute
them. Of course, people will come calling asking for that
845 X 846 cross, or whatever....... you gotta tell it like
it is.

But of course, you may develop a seed stock that has the
tendency for flat-vining even though there is no indication
of that from the parents. That's nature... But as a
community we can and ought to do the best we can. My own
experience has shown about 20% of my plants become a flat
vine!

6/11/2004 10:26:29 AM

AXC

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

We have just had a very interesting TV Series screened called "Human Mutants" it could be relevant to pumpkins as it dealt with topics such as conjoined twins and scientific experiments to create newts with two heads there was also a pig with 3 eyes and two snouts.
It was over my head but said that there were "Organisers" which make cells grow in a particular way to much or to little of these and a mutation occurs.
One of these was called Retonoic acid.
Another was a Protein called sonic the hedgehog to much caused 3 eyes to little caused cyclops.
I would need to watch the programme more times to understand it but I think the answer to the double ribbon vine may lie in this direction.

6/11/2004 10:40:02 AM

kilrpumpkins

Western Pa.

Several years ago, my Calai 846 flat vined, and went on to finish with a 673# pumpkin. Had people stopped growing 846's because of this tendency, how many giants from the 846 would NOT have been grown? ("Tainted genetics?")

6/11/2004 11:00:50 AM

Mr. Bumpy

Kenyon, Mn.

I believe AXC is on the right track, Mutagens, Things mentioned on this site! Yeah I suppose you all will leap on me, do a search, punch in: mutagens affect on seeds
I can tell you I have seen the results of seeds treated with various chemicals, but to avoid confrontation, do the search.

6/11/2004 11:16:19 AM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Of course, if it is really 20%, or approaching 25%, this may
mean that this trait is generally spread throughout the
population, and that it is classic Mendellian genetics,
recessive, such that somewhere around 25% will end up with
both recessive genes....... well, I'm not sure that is the
case, but something to consider.

It may be that we see this trait in the heavily planted
seed stocks, simply because these same seed stocks are so
heavily planted! (and noteworthy because they are
popular... ;-) Lots of questions here.

6/11/2004 11:18:54 AM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Not to jump on anyone, but if mutations happen so frequently,
and the result of which is the same (flat-vine)... that
model just doesn't fit. As I understand it, the occurance
of a mutation is much more infrequent and the result of it
is much more random. No freaky chemicals here, and I still
see 20%... I think many growers see the same.

6/11/2004 11:25:10 AM

floh

Cologne / Germany

I would suggest to do a DNA analysis - sounds like an interesting project for a group of students. It refers to other well known "facts" like fruits with a tendency to split, to weigh heavy or light etc. If you can´t see it from the genes, it´s rather hypothetical.
A family can have a mongoloid child and a healthy child at the same time. A mongoloid person can be father or mother to healthy children. So I think it´s not all about inheritance.

6/11/2004 11:39:36 AM

(Doeski)Punkins

Vermont Green MTN State

I have been thinking about this issue for several months. Glad it was brought up. Just like anything in nature specialized breeding can give great results for certain traits, but also can give the bad ones a chance to develop. For example take a look at pure dog breeds. Almost every breed has a general bad trait caused by specialized breeding; skin disorders, Hip Dysplasia, eye problems and so on. My dog for example is known for an easily dislocated shoulder.
So this should be taken seriously by BP growers. How can we purify our seeds??? Should we be notified a head of time about a certain trait and what traits can be carried on to the next generation? This is indeed a science, I know there are a few out there that are good at this, so what info do you have for us? What can be proved as a trait or a reaction to the environment?????
Doeski

6/11/2004 11:43:27 AM

Joze (Joe Ailts)

Deer Park, WI

Im afraid you are missing the point Kilr...i do not advocate the cessation of planting a particular stock, by no means. Im suggestig that distributing seeds from parents who were flat may have a negative impact on future seed stocks.

Brent- you bring up a very valid argument...flat/double may have environmental influences. That just opens up a whole new can-o-worms. for the mean time, im assuming a genetic cause for these traits.

I understand the hot girl distraction thingy...been there done that.

6/11/2004 1:08:55 PM

Mr. Orange

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

I will never use any plants that show signs of flat or double vining for any of my crosses. I am sure that the trait can be found in the plant's genes. It may take some environmental factors to express it though.
I would never take any chances when it comes to producing high quality seeds. Luckily, none of my plants in my main patch show any signs of flat or double vines this year. However, I started a 961 Daletas seed in order to do a great orange cross with the 801.5 Stelts. This plant (see photo gallery) turned out to be flat. So, I will neither use it as a pollinator nor as a seed producer. It was killed this evening. So, even if it is a seed like the 1260, 582, 1016, 1230 or the 961 I would always kill it when it shows signs of flat growth. I would also not grow a seed if I knew that either of the parents had such traits.
Breeding out such flews is the goal!

6/11/2004 5:14:18 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Ah, too bad, I was going to ask you for that orange cross
Martin! But I agree with your reasoning.

6/11/2004 5:22:56 PM

Mr. Orange

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

Cliff,
I also have a 1016 Daletas and a 810 Dill plant in my patch to cross with the 801.5 Stelts. Those should be just as good as the 961 if not even better. And they should have great potential for both great orange color and size.
You are welcome to my seeds this coming fall! Would be great to see a few growers trying my seeds!
Check out my diary update!
Best wishes,
Martin

6/11/2004 5:35:20 PM

AGFEVER04

Azores,terceira Island

i dont no i hear all this talk about double vines, flat vines what is the prob with them? just curious

6/11/2004 5:38:08 PM

Vineman

Eugene,OR

I have 14 plants growing and only two are mutants (963 Stucker and 1230 Daletas). That's 14.28% of my plants. Not too bad. To see a good picture of a flat vine check out my latest post in my diary here in BP.com.

6/11/2004 5:42:56 PM

Tom B

Indiana

I tend to plant stuff that dont have the genes to express. Planted one this year in compeition, and sure enough it went double, but it split. so no harm no foul I guess. Was a real agrivation tho.....

I'm with you Joe. Make seeds that dont do it.

Tom

6/11/2004 5:49:10 PM

BenDB

Key West, FL

I pull ALL flatvines or double vines if the plant does not correct itself.

6/11/2004 7:18:04 PM

kilrpumpkins

Western Pa.

Joze,
I think you missed MY point! I don't remember hearing about anyone whom had a flat vine on the 846 the first year out, and yes, it WAS planted. The second year, however, I heard of several. I don't recall any of my 673 seeds(or other 846 crosses) ever producing a flat vine. How many offspring of flatviners have produced flat vines? I think you'll see many more have not gone flat than those that have. I tend to agree with Brent that perhaps environment may influence flat vines. I hear what you are saying, but by never planting any offspring simply because a parent went flat, we may be missing some potentially great crosses! Prove that it's strictly genetics and I'll believe you!

6/11/2004 7:24:57 PM

Louie1

Arizona

"History is doomed to Repeat it's self"

If I remember right wasn't somthing like this going on in the 1940's? WW2. trying to make the best race? let me hear an ORANGE POWER! lol

Is it the pumpkins falut if it's born with a flat vine or a white,red,orange Ect pumpkin?

Wont the geans start to be inbreed after a while?

Jeff

6/11/2004 7:32:14 PM

Tom B

Indiana

has anyone ever had a flatvine that didnt have 567.5 Mombert in the background?

Tom

6/11/2004 8:23:32 PM

Boily (Alexsdad2)

Sydney, Australia

I will probably pull all mutants in the future in competition spots, regardless of pedigree. Having a 582 go double and produce nothing is not fun. Better to give something else a go with normal vine growth. Have a few good back ups ready, or plant 2 close together just in case, then make a cull.
My record for doubles/mutants:

797 Troy, culled 2003 untrainable
582 Hester, grew out - no fruit 2004, pain in the backside!
785 Mombert, 206 pound est fruit at test patch
1000 Gustavsson, no fruit set at test patch
850 Wallace 00, no fruit set at test patch

From experience they don't grow much...... but they can!

Funny though, of 100 plants last year only 4 double/mutant.

Ben

6/11/2004 8:39:05 PM

Boily (Alexsdad2)

Sydney, Australia

Also forgot the 534* Reiss was also a true mutant, vine went 16 wide within 3 foot!

So 5 out of 100 plants... Ben

6/11/2004 8:55:17 PM

Since all 582's, 723's, 842's, 845's & 846's are difficult to grow & produce seed of poor potential, I'll sacrifice myself & accept all these lousy genetic freaks & prepare a fiiting grave right here.

Could it just be that the fastest horse is also the hardest to ride?

6/11/2004 9:17:48 PM

Madman Marc

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

These are all great points made. One thing to keep in mind, like any plant, the traits you desire most can be isolated and the bad traits can be bred out. It matters little if you prune a flat vine, grow it, even make a self cross from it. It does matter very much that this information is made public! I'd be pissed as all hell using a flat vine genetic with another, only to find out later that those seeds came from a FV plant.
Posssible also that this may be an environmental condition. Even if this is the factor, then still certain genetics will favor the tendency to flat vine more than others. This has been the deal with splitter genetic seeds. As I said, you may get one of the non- splitters from that genetic, and be able to breed out that trait if you wish to spend the time doing that. It takes several of the same seed stock plants and several years to succesfully pull that off. I do not know very many growers who actually might do that.
Also, what kind of chemicals or hormones could be applied to a plant which might reverse or at least curb such growth? We know gibberillins auxins & cytokinins all control root formation and growth. Auxins though, are more influential, especially in formation of stem growth. What effects would napthaleneacetic acid, indolebutyric acid, dichlorophenoxyacetic acid, or gibberillic acid have using them in excess? Has anyone ever used any products containing anything with any of those 4 and noticed drastic changes in growth? I used gibbewrillic acid years ago, spraying the vine tip on a plant, and it sure curbed growth... matter of fact, it stopped it for a month. I perhaps over sprayed, but a thought anyway.
BTW... some weird-o down the road may like the challenge to play with a mutant gentic. I don't know who would be a gentic madman and do such things, but you never know...

6/12/2004 12:13:31 AM

Tiller

Sequim, WA

Here are a couple of interesting links I found with just a quick search. The correct term for the flat vine condition is fasciation. Do a little search for yourselves and see what you come up with.
http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles0700/
http://members.lycos.co.uk/WoodyPlantEcology/

6/12/2004 1:52:47 AM

Tiller

Sequim, WA

I looked a little further and here is one more.
http://www.umresearch.umd.edu/CGC/cgc1/cgc1_8.htm

6/12/2004 1:58:42 AM

400 SF

Colo.Spgs.CO. Pikes Peak Chapter @ [email protected]

STATS..who did the big ones on flat vines ??? WE ALL HAVE TO KNOW........as there should be this option when researching fruit genetics, and which ones we plant data base due to flats, ribbons, splitters, odd ones, long ones, dill rings, green ones, brown ones, orange ones, & blue fruits..lol....vine color, double leaf junctions..? tendrils/quad flowers/ normal plant...which plants showed tendancy toward double vine, anothter went flat, and or / normalized itself out due to soil / environmental conditions/ hot / cold / amendments / or technics of growing..What a guessing game it is with certain recent genetics.....seems the older genes are not so mixed up and more reliable to do a big aggressive plant without the implications of the new mixed up genetics and the chance of a fat huge flat / ribbon plant or otherwise........

6/12/2004 6:23:46 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Taken from the link below. They sure don't like flat vines at all. Seams to backup Joze's position
Stem flattened at the top - This is due a to a genetic condition called fasciation. Sometimes two fruit will also be welded together. The plant otherwise appears to be healthy. This disorder can not be transmitted plant-to-plant in the greenhouse. Such plants are not productive and should be removed.
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/opp4556?opendocument

6/12/2004 7:23:17 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Another viewpoint from the link below. Fasciation, plants affected and probable cause?
One is exposure to 2,4-D or other hormone herbicide (someone might have used a lawn weeder like Turfix somewhere nearby). However many other conditions can look similar, including ammonium toxicity. This can occur if you apply a lot of nitrogenous fertilizer in a form that produces ammonia during breakdown - usually the more organic ferts like blood and bone. I have seen this myself this year on one early planted tomato which aborted its first two trusses due to excessive levels of ammonia, and produced some fasciation as well. It did correct later however after the levels reduced. Could either of these conditions apply in your case?

http://netlist.co.nz/gardens/Notices_form.cfm?Thread=12010&DispPeriod=6_m&SearchSubject=&SearchPerson=

6/12/2004 7:34:29 AM

Duff was aluding to the use of heaters inside cloches on another thread (we only have about 10 related to FV's) as well as in private emails.

Manure produces ammonia as does ammonium, calcium, & potassium nitrate fertilizers. I have had combinations of these produce ammonia gas-offs that were contained by the cloches. I wasn't blessed with FV's. Instead mine looked like a flame thrower had been through the patch. I also know that one or more of these combinations were in use in at least a couple of the local FV's.

Temperature, ammonia & their impact on PGR production might well influence or be the sole the triggers.

If I had a FV to concern myself with, this is the area I would be looking. But instead I've got secondaries & tendrils to go deal with.

There have beeen some excellent points made in this thread.

*THIS* thread deserves a copy/paste to word along with the finer points made in a few others. I think you guys are on to something here.

6/12/2004 8:28:42 AM

OK. I made a 4X application Gibberlic Acid last year. Our 845 Nesbit's main vine stopped growing for 4 weeks. When it resumed growth, the result was a FV. Here is a picture:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=15353

6/12/2004 9:06:53 AM

Regarding the 4X GA3. The other 2 plants also reacted unusually. One responded by growing a 55' main, very few secondaries, & all male flowers for 5 weeks on every bit of the first 45' of main. The other failed to set fruit for the same time. The first successful set on these wasn't until August 9th. That fruit was set on a secondary & put on around 200-220 lbs in 6 weeks. The walls were 6-10" thick.

6/12/2004 11:02:50 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Many causes of ribbon vines. Although not directly referring to AG's it gives a good understanding of the problem. From the attached link.

The word fasciation comes from the Latin fascia, meaning a band. The phenomenon has been widely observed in the plant world. Fasciation can affect the whole plant or any of its component parts. In true fasciations the growing point is generally ridge-like instead of circular, leading to a flat ribbon-shaped structure, although there is another much rarer type, characterised by a ring-shaped growing point, which produces a hollow shoot. Fasciation has been recorded in 107 plant families. It is especially prevalent in species with indeterminate growth patterns - i.e. those that do not conform to any fixed pattern of growth.].
There has recently been a renewed interest in the study of fasciation and the cause of fasciation is now the subject of some debate.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/WoodyPlantEcology/sycamore/fasciation.htm

6/12/2004 4:46:41 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Fasciation in the Plant World
The word fasciation comes from the Latin fascia, meaning a band. The phenomenon has been widely observed in the plant world. Fasciation can affect the whole plant or any of its component parts. In true fasciations the growing point is generally ridge-like instead of circular, leading to a flat ribbon-shaped structure, although there is another much rarer type, characterised by a ring-shaped growing point, which produces a hollow shoot. Fasciation has been recorded in 107 plant families and is common. It is especially prevalent in species with indeterminate growth patterns - i.e. those that do not conform to any fixed pattern of growth.

Fasciation is only one of the numerous variations, often exhibited in the form of completely abnormal structures, which may be observed in plants. Such abnormal forms of organs were widely studied during the 19th Century and the early part of the 20th Century and the subject was known as teratology (the science of wonders or monsters).

http://members.lycos.co.uk/WoodyPlantEcology/sycamore/fasciation.htm

6/12/2004 4:46:48 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Young sycamores have short and long shoots, while mature trees have only short shoots. The short shoots of juveniles are borne on the side of the main branch axis and usually grow about 5cm per year: some are fasciated, with a ridge rarely exceeding 0.5cm in width. On the long shoots (usually the leading stem or the main axis of a branch) growth reaches up to 1m per year. At its widest, the fasciation is about 5cm wide and curved, and usually branches into several shoots. At this point the arrangement of leaves, buds and twigs does not show any distinct pattern, but by looking at the longest shoots it is possible to see a change in the position and the number of leaves and buds along the length of the stem. Buds occur at the base of the leaf petiole and, like the leaves, normally occur in whorls of two. In some cases it may be observed that just above the bud scar the leaf and bud number per whorl increases from two to three and then to four: the shoot later becomes fasciated and all apparent order in leaf and bud position is lost. In sycamore it appears that the increase in the number of parts eventually leads to the production of fasciation. This suggest that there is a lack of hormonal control in the growing point and, as the trait appears to be more come in some areas than other, that the environment strongly affects its expression.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/WoodyPlantEcology/sycamore/fasciation.htm

6/12/2004 4:48:28 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Fasciation in Sycamore
Most trees and shrubs, both coniferous and broad-leaved, can bear fasciated branches and these are easily observed on deciduous trees in winter. Some species, including the sycamore, are far more susceptible than others to malformations. Sycamore is a very variable species and variations in the number of plant parts, such as carpels and cotyledons and in the sex of flowers and inflorescences have often been recorded. Likewise, fasciation is also common in the sycamore, including fasciation of branches, twigs, petioles, inflorescences, and flowers.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/WoodyPlantEcology/sycamore/fasciation.htm

6/12/2004 4:48:54 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Causes of Fasciation

1) Genetic Fasciation
Fasciation of the stems of the 'mummy pea' was one of the original seven Mendelian pairs of characters. This character is often controlled in plants by a single recessive gene, but inheritance can also be non-Mendelian. Many species, including vegetables such as the Swiss chard, exhibit true-breeding fasciated lines, although the expression of the character is very dependent on environmental conditions - especially temperature and nutrition. Because the gene conditioning fasciation exhibits incomplete penetrance, the character may assume any of many degrees of expression.

6/12/2004 4:51:22 PM

Ontario, Canada.

2) Physiological Fasciation
A) Natural Environmental Factors
a) Attack by Insects Several insect species have been found to produce fasciation. Band and ring fasciation in Oenothera spp. are caused by the presence of eggs of the genus Mompha in the growing point (Knox 1908). A stem of common hawkweed (Hieracium vulgatum) attacked by the gall was Aylax [= Aulacidae] hieracii was normal below the gall but fasciated above it (Hus 1908). Fasciation of the fleabane (Conyza canadensis) is caused by Cecidomyia erigeroni. This gall midge lays its eggs on the surface of the plant and the resulting larvae penetrate the tissues (Hus 1908). On wild radish (Raphanus raphanistrum), Molliard (1900) found the tunnel of a beetle larva running through the centre of every fasciated shoot and extending upwards to the growing point. He made similar observation on hawkweed oxtongue (Picris hieracoides), where he found lepidoptera larvae in a gallery situated in the central part of the growing point. According to Peyritsch (1888) the mite Phytopus is the possible cause of fasciation in the Valerianaceae. Munci & Patel (1930) showed that the mealybug (Pseudococcus spp) that infest sweet peas along with fungi and bacteria are not the cause of the observed fasciation, and their work demonstrates that field observations alone are insufficient to ascertain the causal agent of fasciation.

b) Pressure Underground shoots that pierce the ground, such as asparagus, tend to become fasciated.

6/12/2004 4:52:04 PM

Ontario, Canada.

c) Seasonal Influences Time of sowing may influence the degree of fasciation, with earlier sowing appearing to produce larger numbers of fasciated plants. Crowding has often been reported to produce a decrease in the percentage of fasciated plants.

d) Temperature Low temperature followed by high temperature causes fasciation in Hyacinthus and may be a cause of fasciation in other plants.

e) Mineral Deficiency Zinc deficiency is known to cause fasciation (Rance et al. 1982).

B) Artificially Applied Factors
a) Decapitation of Seedlings and Defoliation Amputation of the main stem of seedlings induces fasciation in several species. Defoliation produces a similar reaction. Blaringhem (1907) reported that heavy pruning induced fasciation in deciduous trees.

b) Wounding of the Growing Point Wounding causes fasciation as well as all kinds of abnormalities.

c) Ionizing Radiation (X-rays and gamma-rays).

d) Infection with Fungi, Bacteria, and Viruses

e) Polyploidizing Agents (colchicine, morphine, phenyl-urethane, etc).

f) Nutrition Good nutrition, including high rates of manuring, increases the occurrence of fasciation.

g) Water Shortage Plants with indeterminate inflorescences when kept under drought conditions prior to flowering and then subjected to heavy watering and high nutrient levels will produce numerous fasciations (Hus 1908). h) Application of Growth Regulators TIBA (2,3,5-triodobenzoic acid), for example, induces fasciation, particularly ring fasciation, and many other abnormalities, including distortions and fusion of organs. (See also Astié 1963).

i) Photoperiod Fasciation may be induced by increasing or decreasing the photoperiod - the lenght of day experienced by the plants (Astié 1963).

http://members.lycos.co.uk/WoodyPlantEcology/sycamore/fasciation.htm

6/12/2004 4:52:16 PM

Stan

Puyallup, WA

My Hester 582 has flat vined! I do not recommend that any one with a "weak spine" attempt to grow this seed. So what if it grew a 1400 pounder! I strongly urge each one of you to send me every one of your 582's or any other seed that produces a double vine. I'll even pay for postage for you to do this! :>)

6/12/2004 11:46:03 PM

What a guy! Stan's the man. So be it. Just send the 723's, 842's, & 845's to the Northeast corner & let Stan pop 582's in the Northwest. Clearly it makes sense to double or even triple plant these "inferior" seeds so the more troublesome ones may be culled in good conscience.

And those that are still a bother & grown on for weight, can have their seeds branded for what they are. Flatties!

6/13/2004 7:30:30 AM

Giant Veggies

Sask, Canada

Well I have to take time from this rainy day to pipe in...

A lot of good points here and Madman Marc I believe says it best.

I think some of you would end up loosing alot of good plant potential if you ripped up all your mutants. First hand I grew the 1230 last year and it is clear now that this seed stock are mostly mutant plants and is clearly genetic. You can see the parentage on this one on AGGC.

However I witnessed the largest stump to date on a Ag and the size of main vine and leaves were just as impressive. That is how our 727 Pearce (x 1337 Houghton)came about and it was crossed with all these genetics in mind and a grow out of the mutant genes is under way. So far this plant (727) is out growing any thing else we have planted and it looks as if the large stump will continue. The plant started picking up steam and has not slowed, gallons of water have slowed our other plants leaching alot of nutrients this one, no.

Also when it is not raining the heat hits the plants hard, the 845 Bobier we have already has 4 leaves burnt and gets heat stress very easily, the 727 doesn't even require misting. Now the mutant genes are visible but very slight, we have 2 secondary's that are mutant and about three first males have leaves growing form the base of the flower. but other than that, very nice plant with a big stump and vine.

So before you rip out that mutant think about a few things, are there any good traits you would like to keep that are not easily found in another healthy seed stock, can the bad gene's be grown out fairly easily. etc.

Just my two cents...
TTYL
Ernie
Giant Veggies

6/13/2004 11:16:22 AM