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Utah

I was thinking about double vines the last couple of days...
That maybe one side of the tip has that double vine trait in it... say the far right side... so that far right side tip keeps adding a vine as the new growth comes out... so if at the two vine stage you cut off the right tip ... then one of two things will happen...
1) you'll get a normal vine out of the left side... because only the right side had the trait in it.
2) you'll get a double vine again because the left side has the same trait in it.

any thoughts ?

6/8/2004 10:27:15 AM

[email protected]

We need to take direction here from Linus. It's all about sincerity. The Great Pumpkin is trying to teach us something. The flat vine speaks to us....listen.....

6/8/2004 5:05:25 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

I can't Agree with this theory. It is like saying your left arm is different genetically than your own right arm. The double vine trait is one that surfaces in a few select seeds. The Other trait that these seeds produce is Huge solid orange fruit. If we were a seed company we would breed this trait out if possible.

6/8/2004 5:58:42 PM

Atlanta, Georgia

Linus,
My 582 Hester is double vining and the main is only about
two feet long.
Should I just continue to let her grow and later if I have two females at one leaf junction just remove one of the pumpkins and drive on?
Thanks for any advice!
Michel

6/9/2004 2:13:23 AM

nanaimo,B.C,Canada

Well Michel,my 842 eaton flat vined until the 3 foot mark and now it split into 2,so i cut one off,so far so good. I would give it a chance.

Dave

6/9/2004 2:54:06 AM

Sydney, Australia

Michel,
The 582 I grew last season double vined from the start, then split in two(see my diary), I then cut off the weakest at 2 foot out and the remaining vine again doubled, and then split into 2 at 8 foot out. This time I was more patient and let them both grow, and discovered one was normal and the other again a double... Cut the double and I had single main from there. It was incredibly hard to train, and it all ended up a waste of time as the plant wouldn't set a fruit. But of course there are many other factor that could be the reason. However 1000 pounders have been grown on flat/double vines before. If I get another I will probably pull it.
The 582 seed doubles a lot and is risky, but there are a few silver bullets amongst them as we all know...... Good luck! Its your call!
Ben

6/9/2004 4:42:13 AM

Colo.Spgs.CO. Pikes Peak Chapter @ [email protected]

BOILY..1000 lbrs have been done on the flat / double / ???? I would love to get any insight into the enlightment of the flat/ mutation vine technics.....from any growers whom have been sucessful on the flat/ribbon/Vine....do you dead head the vine after polination or shortly thereafter due to inability to correct the vine to the correct position ,due to the flat without breakage.....I guess it depends if it has A long ONE ( pinnochio.. like the nose stem... long Peter stem..lol.....or a short one... with the short one you are doomed....... I think with the flat as most other things , short stinks , But long is wonderfull...... any comments....let em fly......

6/9/2004 6:00:09 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

Michel,

I remember Brett telling me last winter that the plant that grew the 1186 Pierce 03 had a flat or double vine.
However, he also mentioned that the plant that grew the 1458 had a normal vine.

Seems like at least 50%, if not more, of the 582s produce those double and flat vines.
Your plant seems to have a double vine and not a true flat vine so there is still hope.

My 582 has a normal vine but the whole plant is growing really slow compared to my other plants.
I wonder if this is also a typical characteristic of the 582?
How were/are everyone's 582 plants? Slow starters?

Best wishes,
Martin

6/9/2004 9:33:52 AM

Utah

I don't think the right arm, left arm statement is valid.
The situations are not comparable.
Yes each cell every organism all have the same DNA - or genetic blue print in them, but there are many different types of cells. Roots are roots, leaves are leaves, etc. Different cells are triggered to do their thing at certain developmental stages.

In a flat vine, in the tip of that main vine is some trait, genetic and/or environmental conditions, that is triggered to make it go flat. My question is ... if you split your main and now have two main vines... is that flat vine trait and associated trigger still present in the new growth tips of both of those vines? I think maybe that it is not.
But I only have a few of examples to back up the theory. Boily post above is one, a great one. If it is not present in one of the tips then... we have a new technique to help us deal with flat vines. Which may or may not turn out to be useful in growing "normal" plant with a large fruit.

If we do have a new repeatable useful technique the growers could cut/split the tips of their flat vines (as suggested by Tom Beachy in an earlier post). The plants then would grow one normal main vine, one that could be kept. And off this one vine one would hopefully have a much better chance of growing a decent fruit.

6/9/2004 12:16:31 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

If a trait is present in a "tip", then it's present in the entire plant. You can't have genetic traits segmented in different sections of the plant..genetics don't work that way, in any plant or animal.

6/9/2004 9:13:58 PM

[email protected]

But traits can present themselves in certain parts of a plant or animal just the same.

6/9/2004 9:58:43 PM

this theory would be like having one brown eye and one blue eye. you either have the gene or you don't. a difference in vine traits within a single plant would have to be due to a mutation, not something that was genetically inherited as two normal traits in one individual.

6/9/2004 11:12:27 PM

Utah

Kyle-
I guess it goes to how you define trait. I was thinking of a trait as a characterist that is manifested do to genetic and enviromental conditions. not just genetic along. but OK I agree the trait is always present. The genetic predisposition to flat vine is present of each and every cell of the plant. something triggers it to appear. some environmental factor, or interal time set genetic trigger.

But Boily’s and others plants tells us that a flat vine is only triggered and manifest in certain vines at certain times. So a grow can take advantage of that an maybe grow a normal main vine plant instead of a flat vine plant.


Brig-
some dogs have different colored eyes.

6/10/2004 10:06:56 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Bottom line tho'...whatever works is best huh?
I've got a double on both my 1260 Weir and 572 Andrews (1260 x sibb). I'll be cutting tips soon, when the vines get longer (they were late starts)
Hope it works.

6/10/2004 10:47:58 AM

[email protected]

We're growing an 842 Eaton. Just up the road, Ray Leonzi is (was) growing two of them. Both his either went double or flat. Ours did not. Does mine lack the trait or were the environmental factors so much different just several miles away? Which is it? Both & neither.

We know the trait is there just as sure as it is in the 846 that was the 842's maternal parent.

Al Eaton tells me that none of the 842s he's grown have demonstrated the trait to him. Are my environmental conditions more like Al's than Ray's? Not likely.

Do all 842s & progeny of the 846 demonstrate the trait? No. But all do have the potential to show the trait just as surely as they have the potential to pass it along to their progeny.

So is their an environmental trigger? Maybe, but I doubt it. Converging energy lines? Planetary alignment? Lunar phases? Bizarre & as yet unseen biological soil influnces? Temperature triggers? Subterrainian gaseous venting to the mantel? Hey, Don't laugh. We still call Fairy Rings Fairy Rings!

Go out on a limb & stake a claim to a theory. Until someone proves it, that's all it is. Just another unsubstantiated theory that takes on a cult fiction fantasy/reality fueled by our idle ramblings in this very forum. LOL

Maybe it's something in the Milk. Mad Pumpkin Disease!

We need to accept that we cannot control everything. Though we should still continue to try.

Linus relied too heavily on luck. In most cases, after the last card has been played, so too must we.

Hold or fold? We decide.

6/10/2004 11:01:07 AM

St. Thomas Ontario

My two cents...i'm growing Boily's 950 this year and yes it's starting to double vine. I think genetically speaking, double vines have to be an inherited trait, but one that can be corrected if the right 'cuts' are made (at least in that particular plant, (trait will still most likely be passed on). Note to self, all vines on a 'double vining plant' aren't that way....so it's not impossible for the plant to throw single vines. Remember also the apical meristem (growing tip) is laced with growth hormones...over production=extra growth(and not always where you want it:( Seeing as the main is normally the most vigorous, stands to reason this trait would normally be exhibited there...but what do i know, i havn't had a 1000lber...yet;)

6/10/2004 11:18:53 AM

Ma.

I have 9 plants going and 6 of them are looking like they may flat vine ,they all have sections of flat growth,and,at the base of some double flowers tendrils etc,however the new growth on the main seems to be round rather than flat,I dont think it is a genetic trait other than certain plants being more prone than others.I think it is caused by a combination of cold soil and nutrient/excess or imbalance due to the cold.All my plants are under cover but none have had suplemental heat.all growers in my imediate area have heated houses and all have normal looking vine.During the past 2 days we have had some hot sunny weather i have been flushing the soil hoping to leach excess nutrients. as i said above the very new growth seems to be a round main vine.These plants are just getting to the point where they will lay over, only time will tell.Plants are 842,eaton,2-552 sherwoods,695 handy,1133 demers 709mccallum,1097 beachey,838 hoomis,990.5 lyons. just a guess on my part and not very scientific but the new warm weather growth seems to be normal, the 3 plants not showing mutant traits are in soil that was not ammended with horse manure ,somthing else to think about.just my thoughts.

6/10/2004 11:50:24 AM

ipswich, ma usa

It's not the cold weather, it's Michaud. :)

John (5150)

6/10/2004 12:54:59 PM

Topsfield, Ma.

Steve, You got heating cables or a heater in your 842 cloche? Thanks,Duff

6/10/2004 9:05:25 PM

[email protected]

Duff,

No cables. Set out May 2. No frosts since March here this year. Two 100 watt light bulbs for heat on several lower 40's nights. I was tempted to use the small Milkhouse heaters, but didn't need to.

6/10/2004 10:12:47 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

My 572 Andrews (1260 Weir x sibb) started off as a double but has corrected itself.
Today I cut the double tip of my 1260 in 2 halves, pics should be in my diary by tomorrow.

6/10/2004 11:00:35 PM

Topsfield, Ma.

Thanks for the reply Steve...did Ray have any heat in his 842 cloches? Or Light bulbs? Not beating a dead horse here,
just researching a theory, Thanks, Duff

6/11/2004 8:48:55 PM

Atlanta, Georgia

Thanks for all of the replies here from everyone!
My 582 is definitely a double vine and shows no sign
of separating into two vines and for this reason I'm not
pruning anything yet except for tendrils which I always prune...

I think the plant is otherwise very healthy but eventually a pumpkin will set on either one side or the other and that all of the leaf area on the opposite side won't fuel the pumpkin and will be a waste of space. It's too bad that it's happening here at home in my small patch but it's too late to make any replacements.

Next year I'll plant two great seeds even though I'll have a hard time pulling one out. I lost 10 great seeds this year to frost so it shouldn't be such a big deal next year.

Our weather here in Germany is not good at all for this time of year. It's way too cool and there is quite a bit of rain so far which was badly needed anyway...

The 582 is growing great on warm days but is a generally slow plant in my experience. It's still much better than any other plant I ever had so we'll just have to wait and see...

Martin, I don't think that the vigorousness of the vine nor the leaf size has much if anything to do with the final pumpkin size but it will be interesting to see how the season pans out this year. My 419 Pukos and 790 Daletas are
growing slowly since they were in the second main batch of seeds I planted but I still have high hopes for them too. It's still very early.

6/14/2004 2:45:59 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

Michel,

Yes, I also don't think that I have to be concerned about the smaller leaves on the 582.
The whole plant vigor has much improved during last week when we had some warm weather and now the biggest leaf on the 582 is already 20" across.
I also wouldn't have the heart to pull out the 582 as it shows absolutely no signs of flat or double vining. I'd say that at least 50 per cent of all 582s flat or double vine so maybe mine is one of the "silver bullets"....

And I have to agree with you that our weather is anything but ideal this year.
First we had cool weather at the beginning of May.
Then we had 5 frost nights in a row and some more cool weather after that.
Then we only got one week of nice weather followed by cool and rainy weather again.
Last week was quite nice as we had some warmer and dryer weather. But last weekend we again had cold and rainy weather with severe thunderstorms and heavy hail showers.
Now, we are predicted even cooler weather with lots of rain for the rest of the week..... Definitely not good for pumpkin growing!

Last year by mid June I had a main vine of almost 20ft and my first pollinations already done... But of course that was way too early for the October weighoff.
So, maybe if we get better weather soon we still might do well!

Best wishes,
Martin

6/14/2004 7:13:04 AM