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Montoursville, PA

RECENT FROM: VA. ASSN. BIOLOGICAL FARMNG

Humus has very high CEC and it releases Ca to plants as readily as kaolinite. Thus building organic matter generally enhances Ca availability. In the VABF study, vegetable crops have obtained sufficient Ca from two soils with “low” Ca (<60% saturation) but good organic matter levels.





Second, care must be taken on sandy soils with low CEC to ensure adequate Mg and K availability. Gypsum can aggressively leach-out these two nutrients on such soils. In the VABF field study, adding Ca (gypsum) to a sandy Tidewater soil tended to reduce tomato yields and soil microbial activity, possibly by making Mg and K less available. Surprisingly, the gypsum has also gradually tightened an existing hardpan. For sandy soils, many consultants use a modified Albrecht formula, with base saturation of about 60% Ca, 20% Mg and 6-10% K.

Third, plant species differ widely in their needs for Ca. As mentioned earlier, peanuts, cabbage-family crops and some other vegetables require plenty of Ca, and may be sensitive to low soil Ca or Ca:K ratios. Cereal grains, corn, forage grasses, sweet potatoes and most soft fruits have a lower Ca requirement and do well in a wide range of soil base saturation ratios. Buckwheat, vetches, some clovers, phacelia, and some perennial broadleaf weeds have high tissue Ca concentrations, but their roots extract soil Ca quite efficiently, even where soil Ca availability or pH are low. Deep rooted cover crops (and weeds too!) with this capability help recover Ca that has leached into the subsoil.

5/8/2004 9:21:12 AM

Dwaine, your abundance of info never ceases to interest me. It sure gets a person thinking. Especially since I put 140 pounds of gypsum on my sorda sandy soil a few weeks ago!

While adding too much calcium reduces tomato yields, one must also remember that a deficiency of calcium can cause blossom end rot.

5/8/2004 11:26:12 PM

Montoursville, PA

Brigitte..........I never left my schooling get in the road of my education. Seems you still have a chance to use your own head. Ask any professor three questions and most of them will head for the next class. :)

Nothing is worse than a Phd. that grew one cutting in lab. A Phd. that teaches gardening might be. ]:o)

Most soils have an abundance of calcium. What they are short of is the biological life that makes that calcium into a form the plants can use. Most of our soils are spoiled to some degree. Some are still being spoiled. This largely is caused by the use of synthetic killers. Even the wonderfull Ossemei-coat. :) It is just wonderfull. Little tiny beads of slow release poison. Since it takes longer and excites soft growth few will challenge its use. Using just a little is not the long term answer either! There are organic answers for most problems today. The Fertrell catalog is full of suggested solutions....but you have to ask those questions think through the possible applications.

5/9/2004 9:32:54 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

I think it somewhat irresponsible to refer to all fertilizers that don't say "organic" on the bag as *poisons*.
There's alot of folks on this site that would wholeheartedly disagree with the use of that term, and it gives newer growers the impression that the only way they can grow an AG is purely organic....which we all know to be false.
Pick another word already...

5/9/2004 12:38:33 PM

[email protected]

Little tiny beads of slow release poison?

I know veterinarian that might beg to differ. He had to put his own Dog down last fall after his brother-in-law treated his lawn with organic lawn fertilizer. The dog came down with a very strange case of Hepatitis. Odd since the dog never left the confines of it's own suburban backyard. The innoculation period & onslaught of symtoms got the vet wondering. Sure enough, his brother-in-law had applied organic fertilizer with blood containing fertilizer earlier in the year. He used his professional influence to run a test on the ingredients. The results have since been swept under the carpet to keep his sister from losing her mind & ripping the family apart. You'd have to know these folks as I do to understand. Doemestic tranquility to these people is worth more than retribution against a poorly run fertilizer company that is no longer welcome to bid on the brother-in-laws business.

Cases such as this are extremely rare and should not preclude the use of quality organic soil amendments. But I've never once heard of anyone dying of exposure to synthetic fertilizers & challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

Check out Listeriosis some time too. Pregnant women are rarely advised to avoid synthetic fertilizers. But Google "Listeriosis fertilizer" & have a good read.

5/9/2004 2:39:27 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

BTW
The best grower in the world over the past 5 years, winner of the coveted orange jacket several times, a leading pioneer in the hobby of AG growing, and former Canadian record holder...supplements using synthetic "poisons"!
Grew 1301# last year and his soil just keeps getting better every year.
Al Eaton

5/9/2004 6:04:54 PM

canal winchester ohio

Steve, you have me wondering about no one dying to exposure to synthetic fertilizers. I'm not sure of this & that's why I'm asking.
Is any of the following synthetic fertilizers
-Anhydrous ammonia
-ammonium nitrate,,, I always thought these 2 could mess a person up pretty bad.

5/9/2004 7:24:39 PM

canal winchester ohio

I have no doubt a dog could die from ingesting a organic fertilizer. And I'm EXTREMELY careful of what I put on my lawn as I care about my dog more than I do most people.
I mean a dog could eat a fresh fish & nothing happen, that same dog could eat a rancid fish & die...I depends on how the fish was kept.
But I think a dog would die from eating a synthetic lawn fertilizer no matter how it was kept. just my opinion, I may be wrong

5/9/2004 7:38:10 PM

[email protected]

Pumpkin growers don't use Anhydrous. If we did, the only way we could kill ourselves with it would be to drink it or inject it into our blood or lungs. But then straight oxygen or water would have equally fatal effects if delivered properly.

No animal would die from eating synthetic lawn fertilizer. They would vomit long before they could eat a toxic dose. I give lectures on this stuff. Check it out.

Toxicity is measure by LD50. Where we measure the number of milligrams of a meterial per kilogram of body weight is needed to kill 50% of a rat population.

As a for instance: Common Aspirin as one takes for a headache requires 750 mg per kg of body weight to kill half of a set of laboratory rats. So if ten 1 KG rats all each ate one 750 mg Aspirin, 5 of them would live & 5 would die. So now we know that the LD50 of Aspirin is 750. That's pretty darn toxic compared to most fertilizers & pesticides.

Toxicity increases as the LD50 decreases. The less material needed to kill half a rat population the more toxic. Low LD50 is thus more toxic. Higher LD50 is thus less toxic.

5/9/2004 9:28:35 PM

[email protected]

Here are some common items we can all likely identify with & their LD50s:

VX Nerve Gas............Point 14!
Hydrogen Cyanide...............1
Arsenic.......................15
Vitamin D.....................42
Warrior Insecticide..........166
Clorox Laundry Bleach........192
Caffiene.....................192
Tylenol......................338
Anhydrous Ammonia............350
Aspirin......................750
Dursban or Lorsban...........776
Ammonium Nitrate 36-0-0.....2000
Lysol 7% Cleaner............2480
Dual 960 Herbicide..........2780
Table Salt..................3751 = 2 Tbsp for a 1 yr. old.
Quadris Fungicide...........5000+
Merit Insecticide...........5000+
Turpentine..................5760
Urea 46-0-0.................8471 How much safer do we want to be?

I don't advocate eating fertilizer nor feeding it to Fido. But we need to be aware that this is all relative.

5/9/2004 9:28:57 PM

canal winchester ohio

All things being said, I just feel better staying with organic fertilizers. That's it....I can't rattle off numbers to back it, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I just feel better doing it.

5/9/2004 9:48:15 PM

Montoursville, PA

Very interesting indeed.

At Niagra Falls a program feature showed a biological community from bacteria, to better known life forms, being successfully managed without anything that would kill them. It was clearly pointed out that proper management brought about a ballance that absolutely eliminated the need for insecticides, fungicides and other manufactured killers that very well should be legally labeled as biocides.

It is simply scientifically impossible, to justify administering killers, herein not claimed, to not be killers. The reason for that and the use of confusing unproven stories about Aunt Nellies Goat getting sick when it sniffed the hound dogs butt nicely errodes and confuses the simple truth because the simple truth is that the synthetics are indeed biological killers and the person using that communication method of side stepping and side swipping the truth knows it better than most of us.

Will it come to pass in due time that the person delivering or causing the delivery to be made be charged with more serious crimes than simply selling to a non-licenced user?

How long will the killing of the very biological content which can heal the soil continue? Is it a fact that killing lower forms of biological life leads to the higher forms being effected and eventually falling out of existance?

It is a fact that the killers leach downstream and form liquids and slurrys that kill the life in the streams, rivers, bays and yes the oceans. I guess it is OK that some feel these things need to be called something other than poisons. Must make them feel better!

5/9/2004 9:59:55 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Al Eaton must feel pretty good then...

5/9/2004 10:11:16 PM

[email protected]

Specifically what killers leach downstream? Urea?

5/9/2004 10:50:47 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

I believe organic is good, much, much better than chemical ferts. Steve does too or his OM% wouldn't be >20% and soil fluffed up to 12" down....mine to 8". My patch is full of compost, manures, kelp meal, greensand, etc., etc. and by following an organic-type gameplan I have the best soil I've ever had.
But throwing out all these eloquent statements about synthetics killing off all the biological life which could lead to the "falling out of existence" of higher life forms, analogies to dogs butts, "facts" that aren't backed up about death to soil and Mother Earth this and that...is a bunch of hogwash. Synthetic fertilizers are *not* the death of the planet, in fact they help feed most of the worlds populations.
Soil is pretty resilient and using a little bit of chemical "synthetic" fertilizer is *not* going to ruin your patch, no matter what kind of organosmoke someone blows out about death and destruction to the planet.
This is the same old that's been going on for decades, organic farmers, PETA, right-wing environmentalists...all playing Chicken Little and screaming "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"!!!
Only a fool would say natural is not better, but to spout off that these fertilizers are killing off all our biological life and ruining our soil is baloney. Too much use of it and yes, damage. Proper management of it and no, it can be a great adjunct....ask some of the top growers out there who use it routinely.

5/10/2004 6:47:23 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

Come on now Fellers, lets look at this, First, We are not rats, Rats don't have to carry out our normal everyday functions, talk, think, eat soup with a spoon, and they don't have to worry about doing it for near as many years as we do. Do they test the chemicals on "infant" rats? do they study the effect of those infant rats born to tested mothers who Lived? It's not possible for a rat to live long enough to see the long term effect that the testing has done, and ifin Ya about to say long term, well what I mean is one exposure to anything could come back to haunt you, and if you know anyone who has been exposed only briefly to asbestos, you'll know what I'm saying. Noe the "life" Doc is talking about is much more Vulnerable than we are or rats, , Two neighbors, one on the north side of the road, one on the east, the one to the north, uses ONLY organics, the one to the east, bombardes his soil with EVERY chemical he can, I will try to find the notes i made, however, 5 years ago, I came home after a weekend gone and My peas were lying in a mess on the ground, the leaves on ALL the trees were curled, and baby birds were hanging DEAD out of the birdhouse, I have video, I called the extension, they came out, overuse of chemicals, 15 mph. wind, spray head set to high, I could have pressed the issue, but you gotta live here with these people, Now maybe occasional use won't destroy ALL the bio life in the soil, but if anyone wants to contribute for the test, I'll be glad to take samples from the north neighbor, and the east, and SEE which one has LIFE in thier soil.And as far as a dog dying from eating ANYTHING DEAD, well My dog will and does eat anything, and if Ya think he is not healthy(125 lbs.) Come to my place and take a lunge at me!

5/10/2004 7:29:14 AM