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Whidbey Island

For years I've noticed older secondaries tend to stiffen and curl up as the season goes on. It makes it more difficult to bury them without breaking them, even when working slowly on warm days.
Is there a reason why this happens and is there anything that can be done to minimize the problem?

7/30/2023 9:44:07 PM

Grittyville, WA

Sounds like the typical deficiencies Im always fighting against. Boron, zinc, phosphorus, calcium... We havent gotten any appreciable amount of rain in July so for me the soil properties can really start to change, rainwater vs irrigation water... this might alter the soil? Are you are on drip lines & well water?

7/30/2023 11:51:47 PM

Grittyville, WA

The ph and soil biology changes, lack of rain and higher temps has an oxidizing affect, and the soil guru I listen to say this changes micronutrient availaility even more than the ph does, (probably changes the soil biology also.)

Interesting observation & I hope you are able to figure it out.

7/30/2023 11:55:37 PM

Grittyville, WA

ps, have you used any herbicide around the outer edge of your patch? I'll shut up now, omg...

7/31/2023 12:16:24 AM

Syracuse, NY

LK- If I may say, do stop belittling your own suggestions, as they are always cutting-edge and make us all think inside the patch, lol;
Plants are ALWAYS trying to reach the sunlight and I doubt that it ever stops on any part of the plant. Hmmm, always upward hence always the vines are like ships at the front, enabling them to grow over anything and actually 'vine' in the first place.
IMHO (In My Honest Opinion), an AG plant would grow straight up a pole or tree as would a Jack's Bean Stalk, yes?
I can put a bamboo stake against/NEAR the end of a vine and by the next day, it is headed exactly the wrong way again. MY wrong way it is, butt to the plant, ITS right way.
Perhaps that, plus any malnutrition and plant biology changing/age and
this Gravity vs. Sun Acquisition tendencies of the plant all contribute.
Commonly accepted is that too much Nitrogen is present;
I suppose (WHOOPS) that in lieu of breaking a vine, it could be alternatively laid down sideways ('Capsized') to accomplish its burial. I have a double-vining plant of my own that had already broken its main unnoticed(!) in like 2 places before I even pollinated it and it STILL impresses me with its now-tended-to fruits!
Oooooh, Pizza's done!!!
Good talk, lol---eric g

7/31/2023 3:24:40 AM

Syracuse, NY

PS---Since vines get broken and they still survive in many stories about them, it is perhaps time to come up with a method of actually crushing a vine amicably/compromisingly in order to get the job done; 'C'mere, you!';
Perhaps 'denting in' the bottom of the vine in like 3 spots will enable vine droppage in full.
I did this to metal piping for my Gigantic Greenhouse Frame in 2006 -
there are 7 pics in total:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=50969

Enjoy, put to good use, etc., and good luck! eric g

7/31/2023 3:34:55 AM

Kelowna, British Columbia

Probably too much nitrogen

7/31/2023 5:38:56 AM

Western NY

Jordan got it.

7/31/2023 8:07:45 AM

Grittyville, WA

And that would be because he is simply adding too much? I think we need a picture whidbey... Ive been dealing with excess nitrate but in my limited experience it doesn't correlate precisely to the height of the vine tips, there is some correlation but I see elevated bine tips more in the springtime than this time if year. If you use a lot of peat moss or something it could be altering the ph of your soil. I'm gonna throw my money down on a low ph issue... watch me lose this bet, lol...

7/31/2023 12:04:42 PM

Syracuse, NY

Oh, I dunno (oops) - I'm thinkin' a plant trying to grow and us trying to control it will be a hard-fought battle...
Is there a commonly-accepted solution for this, then, since it seems to keep coming up as a major problem?
'Reducing Nitrogen' would be like stopping global warming and also having to backspace over what has already accumulated. I had this problem on my 940.6 in the back patch. One vine had already broken and the next two were my own fault in attempting to determine how much force was needed to simply adjust them - not much was too much...

The odd, yet intriguing detail is that those vines were on the side of the plant facing away from the late-afternoon (hence, the more pliable time of day) sunlight; The vines on the late-day-sunny side are fine and always have been;
...butt again, is there a solution? I'd have to say (oops) that waiting longer to bury vines is in order, or if they break in the meantime, do as others 'end up' (lol, so punny) saying.
***I'll try my vine-denting-in method on some poor vine just for fun!*** eg
There - that 's all of what I think (oops) but in agreement with the Nitrogen possiblity, here also is the only initial link to 'excessive nitrogen' from the Site Search window I found yet and took time to read to save y'all some time:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=194278

eg

7/31/2023 12:10:47 PM

Grittyville, WA

I have high nitrogen and I'm not experiencing any extra-easy breakage of the plants, certainly not in the afternoon. So, I think we could narrow it down further (but maybe its just that I'm not watering my plant enough.)

7/31/2023 12:14:43 PM

Syracuse, NY

I'll try to promise that this is the last of me on this:
If you DO end up (lol) excessively watering the plant to reduce excess N, DO consider re-fertilizing right after to keep the rest of the regimen intact. I've said elsewhere that I had NO problems with my plants UNTIL excessive rain occurred and I laid off the ferts therewhen, lol---eric g

7/31/2023 12:22:19 PM

Grittyville, WA

pumpkinpal, the solution would be to add silicates, calcium, boron, copper...? things that can give structural tenacity to the plant? Nitrate to a plant is like excess sugar to humans, it can eat less of those empty calories, or it can eat more real food... Either way it should rebalance things? Well Andy is an amazing grower and Jordan is rather smart too so probably I am in over my head again...

7/31/2023 12:29:48 PM

Plymouth, MN

In addition to excess nitrogen, I’ve always thought the excess vine curl later in the season could be attributed to the plant having fewer places to push water and nutrients as it gets terminated. If half or more of the plant is a dead end, the “pressure” has to go somewhere. Could also explain the explosive growth of tertiary vines from mature, fully buried secondaries.

7/31/2023 1:20:21 PM

Syracuse, NY

I just updated my diary to reflect the way I would flatten a vine for burying it. IT was fun, butt depicting it in a hurry was less than, lol---Next year I may do a whole plant as-such! HAaaaaaaaa>>>> cjb - Agreed, and the end result is supposed to be it going into the pumpkin; Perhaps that's why it's all the rage lately about 'terminating the main at the pumpkin'; Noting that there are very few secondaries from the pumpkin-on this year, a 100%-termed plant ended at the fruit seems a great idea, butt then there's that advice from Mr. Paton. Later---eric g

7/31/2023 3:52:32 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

Eric, surely you have a large AG you can post a pic of with all this advice?

7/31/2023 4:48:14 PM

Marshfield, Ma, USA

Hi CJB. That is an interesting observation Re an older terminated vine. I cut off a slew of rampant tertiary vines off of one of my plants today on older vines. I think the back of the plant being older shows it's age earlier ( hence curling) than the newer growth.

7/31/2023 7:06:00 PM

Syracuse, NY

No, I don't, Smallmouth, and it shouldn't mater WHAT I have going on butt tell us all what your
Personal Best is, right now, eh?
Chirp.
Chirp.
Chirp.

Are you having a problem again with me when all I ever do is offer what I know to be a good technique or something else that will help anyone? Maybe you have not reported on Pumpkinfanatic what your own progress has been, but if you ever had a question that could be helped by my innovative attempt at it, I'd have been the first to offer it - I'm not so sure of that anymore.

What is that PB...525?...and maybe 198, even-more-recently?

Jeez, no pictures, either. Well, I'll be nice and not provide links for everyone to jump over there even on BigPumpkins.com and see your lack of anything worth me worrying about, lol.
Or ANY competitor.

This isn't BigFish.com, you know - If it were, you'd do all right!

See, the weight of your pumpkins doesn't matter to ME until YOU make it so.

I guess what you're saying is that if I have a 1200-pound pumpkin right now, people should listen to me, but ignore my advice (or new method of doing anything, really) if I don't have anything so reputable.
That is an immature way of thinking and I guess I should ignore you but I cannot and I won't go as far as to 'ignore' you on here, the equivalent of unplugging an alarm clock = trouble!*

(*Just, in missing your own little comments which...are very rare until I try to help somebody.
Now, why is that???)

Oh, that's right - You said you couldn't understand my eloquent and diverse use of the English language.

My PB is 940.6 and I am very proud of it and will always strive to increase it.

What have you got that gives you ANY weight to throw around???

Failure to disclose will allow me to think
'Yeah, I thought so...' and sleep the sleep of the bigger man,
in many weighs, lol---eg

7/31/2023 8:24:17 PM

Syracuse, NY

'To have a problem with another is to have a problem with one's self.'
(Unknown), lol. (eg)
(edited to protect the innocent)

7/31/2023 8:33:52 PM

Whidbey Island

I appreciate the feedback.
My soil and tissue tests have been actually quite good and I tend to put in slightly less Nitrogen than is recommended. This issue only occurs on older secondaries, particularly when they are more than 20 feet long. I have several secondaries closer to the pumpkins that are smaller and lay down just fine. It seems once the secondaries get bigger (diameter) this happens. Thanks.

7/31/2023 10:37:11 PM

Grittyville, WA

Need a picture. Worth a thousand words in this case.

7/31/2023 10:57:14 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

LOL, it was just a question since you comment so much and actually do a diary. I don't anymore.

2018 was my best year by the way and I used to keep a diary then. Prob ~700lbs. I have NEVER EVER attended a weighoff, and I definitely don't comment often that makes me "throw weight around".

My Zunino has 5 pkns on it right now with the biggest taping 300 dap 40. We grow for quantity after years of splits. I am lucky to spend 20 minutes a day in the patch with work and 3 kids heavily involved in multiple sports.

But yes, you are right. I definitely shouldn't do a diary since my pkns are numerous yet small, and I would prob just mostly post fish and some hunted animals.

No need to get so butthurt.

7/31/2023 11:07:52 PM

Syracuse, NY

There has seemingly been the intent to cause me to -
I'm not some lifelong buddy of yours whom knows your ins and outs;

HOWEVER:
Okay, cool - I do get hot-headed very easily and it has caused me a problem here and there in the workplace, but usually it is because of someone 'tapping on the glass', lol---
Those guys were actual turds I can forget about!
I had actually (as anyone would) looked at yer diary and I laughed several times at your comments, noticing of course the bright orange number in '18 - something about a vine so far out you
'could see Oklahoma?' L-O-L.
Well, we're opposites or even similars in that I need to do a diary and you need to certainly not hold back about it; I'll no doubt laugh a lot more as I see more, I am sure. I am compiling my pics I took a ton of yesterday per NSB's prompt and once that is done, it'll be Movie Time!
There WILL BE nothing to speak of in my Diary - There is, however, next week and the next...eg

7/31/2023 11:27:43 PM

Syracuse, NY

'Movie Time' is on my TV - there won't be a
'pal2 Pumpkin Movie. eg

7/31/2023 11:30:46 PM

Whidbey Island

Pictures posted to my diary. New diary, may take a day or two before they are up.

8/1/2023 1:22:03 AM

Grittyville, WA

Nodes are getting a bit tight, could be zinc or phosphorus? Light yellow younger leaves, might be sulfer? I'd guess calcium a bit on the low side, too. I used the g word... that means its time for me to bow out.

8/1/2023 8:00:22 AM

Syracuse, NY

Naaah - You just need a high-voltage metal button in place of your ? key, lol. I'm gonna grow a late-ass pumpkin on a *Dented-In* vine just for fun - Should have selected yesterday's with that thought in mind more clearly...eg

8/1/2023 8:14:00 AM

Western NY

Whidbey - saw the pics, that seems normal here at times. Unfortunately, some of them aren't the easiest to work with. If they want to snap, I just snap them and fill in that area with the later growth that's a bit more flexible.

8/1/2023 10:37:11 AM

Grittyville, WA

The real issue is how is the pumpkin growing!

8/1/2023 12:24:49 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Andy is always to the point and always dead on. Good on you Andy!

Us pumpkin growers can't read paragraphs unless they have a wealth of knowledge behind them.

I sure miss a few of the guys that have passed away. They had so much knowledge and I learned so much back then.

Andy knows who I'm talking about.

8/1/2023 11:33:12 PM

Grittyville, WA

Any progress figuring it out? Test your soil ph? Our PNW soils get very deficient in micronutrients as soon as the soil biology gets toasted by summer weather. It seems. I observe dozens of small changes, daily, weekly, monthly, not all of which do I know the cause. I'm always trying to figure these kind of things out, though. And by August I am flat out exhausted :).

8/7/2023 9:34:22 PM

Grittyville, WA

Id dig around and check the soil moisture. This could be part of the puzzle. Others will disagree, as always, but I think its worth a check.

8/7/2023 9:39:35 PM