From

Location

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Date Posted

Md/ Usa

how do thing the with change the way AG seeds are trade, grown, transfured

3/16/2004 4:08:21 PM

Long Island,New York

huh??????

3/16/2004 4:21:04 PM

[email protected]

Uh Oh....could be a long thread here.....Message board chaos theory anyone?.....

3/16/2004 5:01:24 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Chaos indeed. We might want to make sure that the PVP
is really expiring... that it is not being renewed
somehow. I don't know if that's possible, but if it is I
would suspect that the Dills would want to retain it.

Regards, Cliff

3/16/2004 5:06:32 PM

ontario

huhhhhhhhh?????????????????/

3/16/2004 5:44:43 PM

C N Y

i'm gonna watch the tape of last year's seminar again and refresh my memory on what Danny Dill specifically said about this. i hope everybody just does the right thing and
trades free of charge like always...i'm just glad i'm all set no matter what..lol. personally, i can't wait to watch it a little tonight! 'pal2

3/16/2004 7:55:50 PM

Liverpool , England

Well I aint gonna pay for seed except from the societies that have auctions and raffles to help their funds. If there aint no buyers then the there will be no sellers. I'm sure most growers feel the same here. Just dont support the greedy few.

Alun

3/16/2004 8:27:49 PM

Liverpool , England

Oh Yeah matfox...my 10 year old lad wants to know what the words....."how do thing the with change".... mean.

3/16/2004 8:30:46 PM

Hayes, Virginia

lol

3/16/2004 8:42:35 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Well said Alun..

3/16/2004 9:26:19 PM

Hanover,Ontario,Canada

Danny Dill Said they own the Registered Trademark Dill's Atlantic Giant PVP Variety Pumpkin.That can never be challenged.Selling Seeds as such will lead those reponsible into litigation.We already know of cases were they have had to step in and quash sales.

3/16/2004 10:16:52 PM

Md/ Usa

well danny dill better learn, how to read. pvp and trademark to different animals
A pvp is like apatent on certian seed variety.
As for trademark dill is out of luck.
Quote from another thread on same subject last year.

"

Variety Naming Guidelines
Here are some of the guidelines for naming new varieties to comply with the Federal Seed Act.

A variety can only have one name.

The same name cannot be given to more than one variety of the same kind or a closely related kind. Kinds of the same species such as pumpkin and squash, field corn and sweet corn, and garden bean and field bean cannot have varieties with the same name. Closely related kinds that are known to intercross such as wheat and triticale cannot have varieties with the same name.

A variety name cannot be misleading such as a name that is similar to an existing name but differs only in spelling or punctuation.

Varieties with names derived from the name of an existing variety must be closely related to the existing variety.

Variety names may contain trademarks, but the trademark status is lost in the sense that anyone marketing seed of that variety must use the entire variety name including the trademark.

A trademark symbol or registered trademark symbol cannot be displayed in the variety name.

A trademark by itself cannot be a variety name and a variety name cannot be trademarked.
"

3/16/2004 11:06:38 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

The PVP expires but they will still own the names "atlantic giant", "dill's atlantic giant", and some other name, it was looked up and posted last year by me and a few others. When the PVP expires this year you can sell the seed all you want as long as you call the seed by any other names besides the ones trademarked by the Dills (ie: Big Bob's Giant Monster Seeds), plain and simple, pure and legal.
Not trying to stir things up, that's just the simplicity and legality of the law as it appears when it was researched....
Now that doesn't mean I'm going to do that, I'm just passing the info along because there seems to be alot of disinformation around about the subject, that's why it was researched last year.

3/16/2004 11:25:16 PM

Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

That would take some getting used to. So Kyle, instead of growing AG's we'd be growing BM's? So when I go down to the neighborhood bar and say that I've got a big BM in my backyard, you think they'll be impressed?

3/17/2004 12:07:57 AM

Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

lol :-)

3/17/2004 12:08:09 AM

Deer Park WA

I believe we will see capalitism at it's finest come spring, Billy Bobs Blobs, Great Goblins, whatever name you wish to call the monsters. A pure breed dog is worth more than a back yard mutt, so the grower with the proven seed will be free to sell it for whatever amount thay want. I see many fine growers building web sites and early posturing for that very thing. I personally cant get to all the seeds I got for nuthing.

3/17/2004 2:11:56 AM

[email protected]

I'm with Gad's on this one. No one is going to *have to* buy seeds, because there will always be fine growers giving away great seeds forever.

But Catipalism will still prosper. Someone *is* going to have a new (patentable?) cross for sale. And some growers whose seeds we seek now may decide to get paid for their efforts. Who? I don't know. But it would be wise to refrain from pre-judging the "sellers" until we have all the facts.

Personally, I wonder if the patent would really hold up in court if challenged right now. The name is a no-brainer slam-dunk win for the Dill's. But the genetic variations we see would make for a pretty loose case in a real court room.

I think the Dog analogy is a very good one. My pedigreed Boxer was $1200. But his eyelids drooped just enough by his 10th week that the breeder decided to sell him. Yet I couldn't touch his father with a ten foot poll. His "seeds" are worth more than I paid. LOL Supply & demand. Plain & simple.

Steve

3/17/2004 6:06:06 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

You can't sell Billy Bobs Blobs LEGALLY in the U.K. unless you are a registered seed merchant and also B.B's.B's would have to be a registered variety (you can't just call them anything here)should be the same anywhere in Europe so red tape is a big barrier to that happening here.Kieth Foster went the distance and got his strain of Onion registered as Ailsae so it can happen (the variety Kelsae has protected rights like Atlantic Giant).

3/17/2004 6:25:45 AM

Roanoke Il

I think maxfox has a valid point Lets say a grower pulls away from the pack and makes across that can produce 1600 lbers consistently If that person isn't as generous as most growers are you will see a new variety that will surpass ag's.. You see some of that already if you really think about it with p and p seeds Where did most growers originally get the 845. If the seed pvp had expired lets say 5 years ago instead you don't think There would have been a new variety yet. Mark

3/17/2004 6:51:04 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Steve says loose case I think that could be the understatement of the year.I am sure that if you buy seeds from Howard Dill they are all the same type like they should be but if you put someone elses unproven seed in the ground and you don't know what the plant habit will be like or the colour and shape of the fruit or the colour shape or size of the seeds inside it calling that a specific variety seems to be stretching things a bit.

Thats really the thing I love about these plants the most you can create whatever you want and don't need a deep pocket to do it,very few other areas where the small man can make a difference these days.

3/17/2004 8:33:53 AM

Md/ Usa

temor what can do with a pvp variety.
Question: Doesn't the research exemption indicate that I can get seeds of PVP protected varieties?
Answer: No. The research exemption says that IF you have access to seeds and use the seeds for research or to breed a new variety, you are exempt from infringement charges. This does not mean that the seeds must be made available to you. It is up to the owner of the seeds to make seeds available or not. The PVPO voucher specimen is not meant to be used to circumvent the owner's decisions.



southern
you have learn read better.
read these quotes from the law again.
"
Variety names may contain trademarks, but the trademark status is lost in the sense that anyone marketing seed of that variety must use the entire variety name including the trademark.

A trademark symbol or registered trademark symbol cannot be displayed in the variety name.

A trademark by itself cannot be a variety name and a variety name cannot be trademarked.
"

3/17/2004 9:23:56 AM

Md/ Usa

Mark p we have perfect example of what happens when a grower gets ahead of the pack. Before dill know one could
break 425 lbs. dill developed a pumpkin that could consistently go over 425 lbs +.
Say some grower breeds a pumpkin that can go over 1500 mosts you motioned before. And said grower and his friends
win most contests several years in a row. And said grower
and friend don't give seeds away but keep them for further breeding. Say if buy the seed you have sign
Lets say you have these growers who win ever weigh-off several years running going from 1500 lbs - 1700 lbs.
The growers who want be competitive will have buy seed or develop a better seed there own. Dill himself did it so it
can happen again. People bought seed from dill originally because if they didn't they could not compete on same level.
Since most growers are competitive or wish to be they will have buy seed to say completive if someone deleveope a seed
that out does the current status quo.
Since most of us are growing to be competive or competive in the future.

A perfect example is the 501 only the developer knows how it was hybredizes if it was a competive seed but the children did not bred true you would have buy from the developer.

3/17/2004 9:52:32 AM

Webster, NY

I know that if you take 100's of cuttings of a certain variety of a tree or bush and root them, one might have different characteristics then the original. If you just take cutting for the different one and it stays consistent, you probably have a "mutant", and a different variety. With pumpkins, how would you tell if, just because it's bigger, and consistently bigger, it isn't still a Dill Atlantic Giant. Unless a consistently large pumpkin is grown from seeds that are not related to the Dill AG then I would guess they would all be Dill AG.

I tend to agree with Tremor, Gads and others. There is no reason to buy seeds anyway, unless we want to support the fine organizations involved in this hobby/sport. Otherwise there will probably be plenty of good seeds from the great people in this hobby/sport.

Let's not get greedy, let's just enjoy what we have.

3/17/2004 11:12:38 AM

Northeast

Ive already had an offer to buy seeds and sell mine. I didnt even touch the subject, watch out the writing is on the wall.

3/17/2004 11:22:55 AM

Eugene, OR

I may only be a lowly rookie without much respect as a grower or a person, but I personally can't see how anyone could even think about selling their seeds regardless of the PVP status. From everything I've learned up to this point, the Dill's are the fine people responsible for the hobby we all enjoy today. Had it not been for his hard work and record breaking achievements we all wouldn't have an AG seed to plant.

For anyone to even think about selling their seed just because they can is the epitome of greed. Take yourself back to where I am now.....a rookie without many seeds. Imagine how difficult it would have been for you to get started in this sport if growers had demanded premium prices for their seed instead of being generous and sending them to you, wishing you luck, and giving you all the information you need to grow a big one. We all started out in exactly the same place.

The fact that each and every grower is so generous and open with their growing experiences is what really impresses me. Until now, I've never participated in anything like pumpkin growing; where everyone involved are great people and the competition really is friendly. Everyone here was a new grower at one time, and it's important to remember that we all got started in this sport with the help and generosity of a more experienced veteran/veterans.

To sell a premium AG seed for a premium price for anything other than a fundraiser is a slap in the face of Howard Dill. It all comes down to respect, and I respect the Dill family's hard work enough to never dream of selling a single seed.

3/17/2004 12:05:37 PM

Western Pa.

Matfox,

MY 10 year old wants to know what "temor what can do with" means!

3/17/2004 2:13:20 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Well said, Brian

Carlos

3/17/2004 2:14:53 PM

C N Y

okay, all good discussion here.
if it ever comes down to people selling seeds,
those that choose to do so and have crosses that people WILL consistently pay for may end-up doing so. hmmmmm. those JERKS!
LOL---JUST KIDDING---!
well, perhaps if the grower himself made a little profit, and Howard Dill got a really good percentage of the proceeds, ohh, i don't know, maybe 50%-75%, well, no more slap in the face, right? perhaps things will REMAIN the
way they've been for so many years, i am soooo FINE with that! just an idea i had reading all these posts.

people could become micro-merchants of
Howard Dill Enterprises, COMPLETE with official bills of sale, grower/recipient signatures, and official stamps
of authenticity. it would be the LEAST THEY COULD DO, having gotten seeds for free from other growers, and paying a FAIR price for seeds directly from the Dills all these years!
just like going to the lumber yard and getting supplies, or the pharmacist or whatever.
and, Howard Dill and family would STILL be doing great with the things the way they are now. well, there may become a little dip in the business, if someone goes here instead of there, but hey, if people can sell seeds for as much as they want to and make a ton o' money at it, and the growers get massive fruit from those seeds, it's gonna happen anyway, if that road opens up.....just a thought.....eric

3/17/2004 2:27:28 PM

Deer Park, WI

I like big ole weinie torchin bonfies...so here's some 110 octane gas for yall....

Lets say i picked up some old tillers in a scrap pile somewhere, or real cheap at an auction. I like tillers. I already got a tiller, but since i like tillers so much, i clean them up, fix a broken gas line, give em a shiny new paint job, oil change, some of that 110 octane gas i was talking bout earlier. Voila, these things fire up and run like champs. Hot damn, im gonna sell em and make some ka-ching on the side. Who's gonna stop me? Is this a slap in Troy-Built's face? Is this immoral? Methinks no.

How does this differ from the seed situ? Law says I cannot build my own tiller and call it a troy built and sell it. thats illegal, but i sure as hell can build a tiller and sell it. Its called capitalism. No disrespect to the inventor of tillers, why? cuz he had his 7 years to collect on the idea.

If someone offered you $200 cash for that rebuilt tiller you have there would you take it? Set your morals aside and apply that logic to seeds. To me thats a mighty lucrative deal.

It gets ugly when a grower has given a seed to you under pretense that it will be grown. Of course there are exceptions, this being one of them. However, if I caught wind that people were willing to offer money for my seeds, that becomes quite complimentary. More power to the capitalists!

3/17/2004 3:04:49 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

I think this might open up seed distribution even more...

Consider the case where everyone was trying to make a buck
(and it wouldn't be a lot of bucks...) from their seeds.
I'm not implying that this will happen or should happen,
just thinking in the extreme...

You have to look at the market for such. Every year there
are probably 500 times more seeds available than there are
growers who want to grow them. There is no scarcity in this
market.

So it would come down to certain seeds that become more
desirable than others, a hot, proven seed. But how do you
get a proven seed? One that has multiple weights over 1000
or has weights near the world record? By getting people to
grow it. And you get a lot of people to grow it by offering
it to people. (Probably for free.)

Yes, there could be some savy individuals who have a seed
stock of 500 seeds, send 200 of them out, find out that
it becomes hot from that 200.... then they still have 300
seeds to market at much higher rates. But if everyone were
doing that.......... the market would still be flooded.
Everyone would be trying to get everyone else to grow their
new seed stock.

Funny thing is, you want TOP growers to use your seed in
this scenario. Would it become practical to PAY someone to
grow your favorite seed stock? Ah...

There are LOTS of seeds out there, and they will always be
available. But even if nobody ever gave me another seed,
I'd still be able to produce enough seeds next year to keep
myself interested for several lifetimes.

Regards, Cliff

3/17/2004 3:22:30 PM

Md/ Usa

pumpkinpal2 "To sell a premium AG seed for a premium price for anything other than a fundraiser is a slap in the face of Howard Dill."
first "To sell a premium AG seed for a premium price"
well Howard dill did just that with seed he used when he set world record.

second "for anything other than a fundraiser is a slap in the face of Howard Dill." Howard has has 18 years of exclusive rights to sell AG seeds.
Patents and pvp's are limited time monopoly on
a said invention or plant variety.
I have not heard any other giant growers of other vegetables gaining exclusive rights on there seeds that grow records then.
pumpkinpal2
So the fact that dill holds exclusive right to the seed under the pvp and you used his seed to win
contest does this mean since dill developed the seed
he get a percentage from all those who won money for the heaviest at there respective weigh-offs have to give dill 20%.
You are aware that trading seeds technically is against dills rights under the pvp.

3/17/2004 3:44:46 PM

Webster, NY

So, does anyone here plan on selling AG seeds?

Not me, but raise your hand if you plan on setting up shop.

3/17/2004 3:55:03 PM

C N Y

no, i did not know that TRADING seeds was under any type of scrutiny and/or was against any of Howard Dill's rights
under his PVP. and, luckily, we have been able to do whatever we have wanted with the fruits resulting from the AG. CONTINUED.......IN A MOMENT......

3/17/2004 4:52:24 PM

ontario

matfox.......it seems to be very important to you, this PVP thing....you already have your game plan and advertizing planned.......LOL....you won't get my business.......seems you have been leading the way on this subject all winter....like everyone says, plenty of good seeds for free and it will basically stay that way, unless some silly people want to ruin a great hobby...

3/17/2004 4:54:42 PM

Wichita, KS

Wait a minute here...

It occurred to me that pedigree dogs that sell for $500-$2000 are usually born into a litter of less than 20. Pedigree AG seeds usually are "born" onto a "litter" of less than... lets say 300. Therefore supply naturally meets demand more easily, keeping prices down further than with pedigree dogs.

Then it occurred to me that if I was to pay, say $10 for a seed (a rediculous price), it wouldn't matter because I would only have to do so once... because the folks on this lovely site have taught me everything I need to know about cloning, selfing and sibbing, so I could make thousands of seeds with identical parentage as the $10 seed, and I could give them all away for FREE, flooding the market with supply, making it foolish for anybody to waste resources selling pedigree seeds, and equally foolish for anybody to buy seeds at all. Heck, I only bought one pack of seeds from the Dills, and now I'm set with hundreds of seeds I have already traded. I won't have to buy seeds for years to come.

Therefore, I'm not worried. Thanks, Bigpumpkin.commers, for creating a market environment that makes no sense to go into business selling AG seeds competitively!

:-D

3/17/2004 4:58:14 PM

C N Y

yeah, had to do a little work for a second, there....
i think we've never heard of anyone marketing a new
breed of giant pumpkin seed that even comes close to the Atlantic giant because no one we know or would ever wanna know has had the gall to try to out-do Howard, the absolute Creator and King of giant pumpkin-growing. and that would never happen anyway.

i said that about the percentage for Howard because there are distinctly two groups here, basically:
one that wants to sell seeds and make a bundle,
and one that feels that selling AG seeds is taboo, and will never do it because it has been the same way for so long, and rightfully so.

the slap in the face thing? well, i didn't say that---looks like it was a quote from a post above. and i can agree with that, and therefore do.
all i am saying is that if it comes down to people selling seeds, it can only be for a very little amount, and should
be funnelled to the Dill family....for their present-day members, and their children, and their grandchldren, and on and on and on! talk about your lifetime plan of action!
he had a great idea, (to put it mildly), acted upon patenting it to become his own, and has reaped unimagineable benefits and happiness from it for many years....weigh to go, Howard!

3/17/2004 5:39:55 PM

C N Y

there is always the allure, though, of making some money off to the side. it is unavoidable that it is always there.
i suggest we apply SOME of the imagination we put into thinking about how to grow bigger pumpkins and how to get money from the AG seeds to starting a new home business or something and leave the seed-selling to the Pumpkin-Growing
Organizations and the Dills and the sanctioned seed-selling
outlets that have APPROVAL from Howard to do so. i am not on anyone's side. but if i were to be, it would of course be the side led by Howard Dill.
my comments were only to enlighten and
possibly stimulate a new idea or thought into being.

let's just see what happens or what we hear at the SEMINAR---seems like what Danny said there woulda put-out the fires under a lot of people...
maybe i shoulda thrown this quote from Daver (above)
a while ago:

Danny Dill Said they own the Registered Trademark Dill's Atlantic Giant PVP Variety Pumpkin.That can never be challenged.Selling Seeds as such will lead those reponsible into litigation.We already know of cases were they have had to step in and quash sales.
3/16/2004 10:16:52 PM
THAT says it ALL to me. eric out
PS-9 days, then SEMINAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3/17/2004 5:40:19 PM

canal winchester ohio

Wayne, you read my mind. Do I know when the patent ( or whatever it is ) expires ? NO ! Why ?....I don't care.
Do I know all the fine details ? NO ? ..Why ? I DON'T CARE !!
I swap seeds with Wayne, I swap with Glen,Kilr,Bill....you get the point. I don't give a rats ass about it & I'm very cautious about those who are.........

3/17/2004 7:19:34 PM

[email protected]

What would happen if someone developes a genetic variation (as Howard did) & proves it with a real genotype? If they sought & were granted a patent & the seed stock proved consistently worthy then we would have a new "Giant" with a new name & a new patent. These we would likely pay for until the cow was far enough out of the barn (assuming it breeds true) & we developed our own seed stocks again.

Same deal. Different millenium. So what?

3/17/2004 7:37:54 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

OK,if I'm understanding correctly, example....Mike Frantz grew his 120# which was a hybridization(138# Big Max x AG) so he can sell those all he wants with impunity.
My 208# is the 120# Frantz x AG which is another generation of that unprotected hybridization (couldn't be protected anyway if I understand correctly) so I can sell all I want with impunity.
Those being the case then AG's can therefore be sold and the selling may be contested by the Dill's but it's really unenforceable legally because it's a "public" name and variety, correct? Therefore all a big smokescreen for years?

3/17/2004 8:50:26 PM

northern indiana

Moot point here folks. Those willing to pay for seeds already are. Not to mention the fact that we all use seeds as "currency" in trades.
People have been competitive for years swapping and trading. I doubt that will change.
Eric

3/17/2004 11:06:25 PM

Colorado Hail, CO. Elev. 5,900 FT

Y'all just better be sure to clone the silver bullet seed plants and breed them....you can try a lot of different combinations of crosses over the years with them too. I'm just hoping I'll finally get one of those "silver bullet" plants one day.

Not all seeds are created equally... and if they are... then they are true F-1 breeding plants. At this time, there are no genetics that are 100% proven to be such a strain. So until there is, you just are taking a chance when buying any seed (hoping it is one that is as successful as others are). And if one is created, then I guess its up to whoever to do whatever. I myself enjoy passing mine around freely.

Madman

3/17/2004 11:11:09 PM

Webster, NY

Yesterday I asked who was planning on selling seeds. No one has jumped up and yelled "I AM". So, hopefully, this whole thing is just an interesting conversation with no one, at least on this site, planning on doing anything. I'm pretty sure for the most part, things will go on just the way they have been. Thank goodness, seeds get started in about 5 weeks.

Dave

3/18/2004 7:48:21 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Dave...I've never sold seed and never will for personal profit, but would for the SPGA. But in reality, and most of us know it, it happens to various degrees all the time.

3/18/2004 9:30:22 AM

South Hill, Virginia

The seed to grower ratio is probably something like 1000 to 1 so I don't think I would lose too much sleep worrying about having to pay for seeds.

3/18/2004 12:29:43 PM

Mulino, Oregon

The beauty of this hole thread is that: Those that trade their seeds willingly with other growers will still have access to all the seeds, 'Even if it means buying a seed from a "seller". Those that sell their seeds, due to greed etc... will not have direct access to those seeds from the "traders" because of their so called business decisions. I say sell 'em if you want, hope you enjoy what you get, because it won't be near enough to cover what you are losing! As for me, all my seeds will always be available. Jim

3/18/2004 8:52:27 PM

Tipp City, Ohio

The PVP act was originally developed to protect the Universities and companies developing "commercial" seeds. This way the Universities and companies could recoup the money spent on research and developement on that seed. It was not intended to be done for a hobby/sport. Can you imagine a farmer paying $300 for a killer corn seed?

There may be a few who will try to take advantage and sell the seeds. But, who will buy them if someone can get them free for the asking? Once I get my "killer" cross(lol); the seeds will be gladly given away.

3/18/2004 9:06:30 PM

Ontario

If a new variety of pumpkin is invented, the weigh-off rules will have to change. $3500.00 first place to Dill's Atlanic Giants and $5000.00 to the Fat Baster Variety.

3/21/2004 8:57:52 AM