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Eugene, OR

Between downpours today, I was in the patch digging the pits I'll be using to help the roots out near the stump. I went down to a depth of about 2 feet in a 3x3 foot square. (Deep enough?!?) My question is, what sort of drainage is required to ensure enough oxygen at the roots and prevent root rot?

Having helped install a couple of septic systems, the percolation tests used to find a proper site come to mind, but I have no idea what sort of rate is adequate for these monsters. Anyone know an easy way to test it?

Thanks!

Brian

2/21/2004 6:20:50 PM

Montoursville, PA

Increased humus percentages in the soil will improve oxygen supply. Decreased use of synthetic fertilizers will enable the good bacteria and good fungi be in ballance to prevent fungi attacks on the roots. Earthworms will further enhance the biological balances. Their pathways will deliver water and exit gases. Their casts are the richest fertilizer known to man. Their slime builds better structure....and they do even more for your patch.

A half bag of synthetic product will kill or greatly retard the living biological elements of you patch's soil...as will over use of insecticides and fungicides.

2/21/2004 9:39:13 PM

Montoursville, PA

Adding lots of manures and fall leaves will raise the surface of the bed and create better drainage. If the water table has come up on you there is little you can do.

The pumpkin is a fighter. One or two days of heavy rain will not kill. It may delay. Many in the Northeast were flooded and still brought in good fruit. There are of course limits. They can not be flooded long term.

2/21/2004 9:47:46 PM

Eugene, OR

Being a new patch, the soil isn't in the greatest shape. Accoring to the fall soil test, all levels were OK except for the OM content....which from your post is what I really need a lot of to ensure proper drainage. I had planned on adding worm castings to the pits along with some other stuff. I was happy to see a few worms in each pit while digging down, so hopefully this is a sign that the soil isn't that bad.

No synthetic ferts in this patch! I'll be going organic all the way.

Thanks for the reply Dwaine

Brian

2/21/2004 9:50:49 PM

huntsburg,ohio

Never dug a pit don't like ponds.Go up mound your soil warms quicker and sheds water.Proably don't know what i'm talking about but thats how i do it.Jerry

2/21/2004 11:03:38 PM

French River,P.E.Island, Canada

Out ,Out, Out of the patch, it's the middle of Feb and your making us snowcovered growers uneasy, , I'm blowing
my patch off tomorrow.

2/21/2004 11:05:55 PM

Eugene, OR

LOL, The snow finally melted here....for now. It was raining and 40 degrees F, but I got them done. Couldn't stand not being able to work outside any longer.

Jerry, if you're the Jerry I'm thinking of then you definitely know what you're talking about. I was actually thinking about mounding the soil up to deal with settling and ensure the stump isn't sitting in a puddle. I don't know if it really matters or not, but my thinking was that having the soil loose and well amended to a depth of 2 or 3 feet would help the stump send its roots down as deep as they want to go. Is it just a waste of time?

2/21/2004 11:27:01 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Yea, he's the Jerry you think he is :0)

2/22/2004 12:07:00 AM

Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

Anybody out there use a sump pump for their patch?

2/22/2004 2:41:13 AM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

My thinking is if you need to use a sump pump for your patch. You need to find a new patch.

2/22/2004 2:57:58 AM

[email protected]

There's a big difference between heavy soil that can be loosened & mounded & a high water table. Ground water is much harder to deal with.

In my Photo Gallery you can see a sump pump in use from last years Summer Spy Tour. Jim was able to produce a fruit from an area that would not have otherwise supported a plant given all the rain here last summer. That location was collecting runoff due to terrain issues. So once the water was out, it stayed out.

But for a primary location, I agree that if breaking the sub-soil & mounding (which won't alter the water table) doesn't work, then it's time for a new location.

Adding organic matter, pea gravle, or calcined clay are all ways to improve aeration & drainage of "heavy" soils.

Mounding will improve surface water movement.

2/22/2004 8:01:16 AM

Brillion Wisconsin

Be careful when using the "glory hole method" of preparing your planting site.(digging a big hole and refilling it with manure,top soil etc.)

I did this my 1st year and the soil never dried out. The roots eventually rotted and the plant died.

The soil in the pit can act like a sponge in some soil types(especially clay) and pulls the moisture out of it.

I go up a foot or two now rather than digging down a foot or two. Good luck....Dean

2/22/2004 8:14:47 AM

huntsburg,ohio

Brian listen to what Dean just said.If you put drain tiles in the bottom of your hole that would help but i still go up.What i did was put drain tile in first,1000 ft of it,then stole dirt from another part of my property to build my mounds and i'm not talking a couple wheel barrow loads i moved many yards of dirt.My finshed mounds are about 30 inches higher than original soil then added my manure wa-la 2 1300 lb plus fruit in ohio's wettest summer in years.Jerry

2/22/2004 10:10:04 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Brian - basic question:

What is the texture of your soil?
- sand, clay or loam?


I'm in heavy, sticky, clumping clay. The only way to go is UP on a raised bed with copious amounts of OM.

2/23/2004 2:42:05 AM

Eugene, OR

Thank you for all the great suggestions and comments guys. It's really nice to have a site to come to where a rookie like me can learn from some of the best. A big thanks to Ken and John for the great site!

Anyway, the soil test I got in the fall wasn't as complete as it would have been if I had used A&L Labs. I don't have any numbers on my soil as far as clay, sandy loam, etc. but having dug a few deep holes in it and scraped it off the bottom of my shoes, I would say it's a tad on the sticky "clay" side.

I'm only renting this house I'm at now but will be here for a couple more years so the changes can't be too drastic. No adding 2-3 feet of soil on top of the existing grade, etc. or I'll have the owner on my tail. A few pumpkin friends of mine have made some great suggestions as far as drainage goes. I'm thinking of going down another foot in each hole and adding refilling it with a foot of gravel for drainage. Mounding a foot above the existing level will give me a total depth of 3 feet for the tap roots, and it should drain ok too. Sound like a decent plan?

Appreciate your help!

Brian

2/23/2004 1:16:43 PM

Wichita, KS

Brian, where I live, I have only grown for a single year so far. I have super-sticky clay, too. I decided against adding gravel, because the clay particles are so fine, they can actually seep into the pores of the rocks, making the rocks heavier, and filling the gaps between the gravel. Over time, the consistency becomes something akin to cement. The difference between my clay and yours is that yours is wet. I live in the foothills outside Sacramento. It gets soooooo dry during the summer that it is not uncommon to find cracks in the ground that are deeper than you can see. My challenge is keeping my garden wet. Therefore I have determined that the best thing for me to do is to keep adding composted leaves (handily processed by my lawn mower), grass clippings, Starbucks coffee, etc. The general Organic Matter routine. I figure, the sooner I can get this stuff "loamy," the sooner my soil will drain and feed my plants properly.

Hope this was helpful. -Toby

2/23/2004 2:09:39 PM

[email protected]

Brian,

You don't need a lab to do a soil texture analysis. You can do it yourself.

There is a simple way to get an estimate of the percentages of sand, silt and clay that are in your soil. Just follow these steps.

First take a pick & pry out some frozen soil. Put it in a large enough plastic bowl so it can defrost at room temperature in the house.

Then find a one quart mason jar with a lid, like the ones used for canning. Fill it a little more than halfway with the soil you want to test. Physically remove any rocks or large bits of roots or leaves & such. Fill the rest of the jar with water and attach the lid tightly.

Shake the jar vigorously for a couple of minutes to fully separate and wet the soil. There should be absolutely no lumps of soil left when you are finished agitating it.

Once you know that the soil is fully dispersed in the solution, set the jar down and begin timing.

---After 45 seconds, mark a line on the side of the jar with a grease pencil or tape where the top of the layer of sand has settled in the jar.

---After 3 hours put a mark at the top of the next layer. This is your silt layer.

---After 24 hours, your clay will have settled out as well. Mark it the same way.

Measure the total depth of soil in the mason jar. Then measure the thickness of each of the three layers using your marks on the jar.

Calculate the percent of sand, silt and clay in your soil sample with the following procedure:

Divide the thickness of the sand layer by the total depth of the soil in the jar.

Follow the same instruction for both the silt and clay layers.

Multiply each of the three figures by 100, and you will have the percentages of sand, silt and clay in your sample.

(Pirated from a similar post I made last fall)

Post the results here or in soil prep. so we can banter that about for a spell. It's fun, educational & there's still a few more weeks to go so we can use the distraction. LOL

Steve

2/23/2004 8:30:24 PM

Eugene, OR

Awesome Steve!! Luckily the soil isn't frozen anymore so it should be easy to dig out. I'll have to get out there tomorrow and do that.

All of you have been very helpful! :-)

Brian

2/23/2004 8:49:40 PM

Eugene, OR

Ok, the verdict is in. The clay dust will settle a bit more, but the percentages shouldn't change very much.

Sand: 57%
Silt: 36%
Clay: 7%

I was quite surprised by the low(at least I think it's low) percentage of clay considering how sticky the soil is when it's wet.

What's the verdict for AG growing? Good to go or time to move?!?! :-)

Brian

2/24/2004 8:27:10 PM

[email protected]

By most definitions you have a "Very Sandy Loam".

See the soil triangle at:

http://www.clac.edu.eg/CLAC-man/soil_triangle.htm

It's got a pretty slick little calculator too.

You're going to have to manage your organic matter & moisture wisely. Nutrients like to leach from sand. So start building stable organic matter & plan never to stop. ;o)

Steve

2/24/2004 9:58:43 PM

Eugene, OR

Again, thank you very much for the info Steve. Pretty cool little soil triangle. My OM plans for this season are unfortunately limited to about 15 yards of well aged cow manure. That equates to about 4 inches in my patch.

This fall will be a different story. I wonder if people will think I'm crazy for offering to rake their yards in exchange for their leaves?! LOL

Thanks again all,

Brian

2/24/2004 11:29:18 PM

Wichita, KS

Tremor
I did your test and came out with 66% sand, and I think 33% clay... I don't see a silt layer at all. Does that sound right?

I've only lived here just over a year, so I'm still getting used to the very red dirt. I did one of those cheap do-it-yourself soil tests because money's tight. It said the ph was about an 8, I had no discernable presence of N, and high amounts of P and K. Soil has more worms in it than any other soil I have seen in my life.

What would you do in my shoes? -Toby

2/25/2004 3:37:13 AM