Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Most of us have been to Disney right? OK. Read one paragraph. Then close your eyes & let the picture form in the gray matter before moving on to the next paragraph. Use your imagination. That's why God gave them to us. LOL

You have just arrived at the virtual tour of the latest no holds barred AG Pumpkin Patch which is the combined effort of Michael Jackson & Bill Gates somewhere near Disney where their horticuture staff helped set the entire system into place. No expense has been spared. White coated smiling Disney folks are conducting the tour & escort you from the monorail to the Giant Pumpkin Biosphere. The ground is so clean you could eat off it.

As you're escorted in, you glimpse the think tank offices of the all-star consultant staff. Names like Dill, Whittier, Daletas, Dueck, Papez, Rose, Bobier & Eaton don the brass placques on the mahogeny doors.

When you walk into the computer controlled atmosphere of the barrier scrub area you're instructed to "get clean". Only after you've checked your smokes, showered in Zero-Tol, & changed into the sterile surgical mask & gown are you allowed to enter the growing chamber.

Ioninic charges are perfect so everything feels & smells like a thunderstorm just moved out. The sweet yet pungent aroma of AG blossoms fill the barely humid air & wrap you in Pumpkin bliss. You would live here if you could.

You stand on a concrete pathway that sorrounds the patch & supports a meriad of robotic arms, fans, & stainless stell guard rails to prevent tragedy. You hold onto the rail since you're feeling light headed in this magnificant setting.

continued

2/17/2004 8:48:23 AM

The first 100% climate controlled greenhouse is dedicated to a single plant (as are all the rest) so the dimensions of the actual growing area is 35' wide x 50' long. The plant has been trained in the Christmas Tree patern. There are no walking boards since a Joy-Stick controlled extruded aluminum platform(s) will place the gardener(s) anywhere within the growing area they desire. The boom operates smoothly & quietly in this serene environment wisking you from one corner of the patch to the other as if an extension of your own mind.

A lone attendant hovers on a platform clipping tendrils with fine surgical steel that glints in the perfectly computer controlled lighting mimmicking the Goffstown New Hampshire solar spectrum to a tee.

A lone 1500 pound behemoth sits on a pulp mill fabric sling that is suspended as if by magic just centimeters above the ground by magnetic levitation borrowed from the monorail. As it grows it is free to float is if in a zero gravity situation thereby relieving the stem of any stress. But just in case, pantyhose is looped from vine to sensor, constantly measuring stem stresses so that the microprocessor controlled robotic arms might make critical adjustments as needed.

continued

2/17/2004 8:49:00 AM

But wait!....There's no soil!.....All around you is a 100% manmade rhizosphere. This Atlantic Giant is growing in a swimming pool! It's roots are lounging in Hydroponic Heaven!Tanks hold nutrient cocktails that are computer controlled to their oxygen rich perfection. Tubes & pumps gently transport the life giving nutrients only to those areas that carefully placed sensors tell the computer are in need.

Pumpkin nirvana........

*WAKE UP*!!!! All this could be a reality. But it's not. All the technology already exists. But none of the worlds Meglo-Billionaires have fallen in love with our crazy Spobby yet. (YET!)

The stage has been set so now it's time for my serious questions: At the edges of this swimming pool, only the secondary vines are rooted. So the pool could be little more than 8-12" deep. Right? Or what?

But at the stump area the pools depth must drop off sharply to what? Eight feet? Only Four feet?

How deep should the stumps area be?

I would favor a rootzone comprized of a 50/50 blend of Calcined Clay & Coarse Coconut. But what other media might we consider? Why?

Have fun. Be creative. But please comment.

Steve

2/17/2004 8:49:08 AM

kilrpumpkins

Western Pa.

I'll have to send this thread to my brother. He's an Imagineer for Disney!

2/17/2004 9:28:04 AM

ontario

to much time on your hands LOL

2/17/2004 9:59:00 AM

JRB

Rhode Island

LOL but why only 1500 lbs. and what kind of panyhose LOL

2/17/2004 10:29:53 AM

JRB

Rhode Island

oops pantyhose still LOL

2/17/2004 10:30:24 AM

Did I forget to mention the 1500 pounder is only 36 days old? And that the sling is also attached to a digital scale? And that it's gaining 42 lbs per day? And that the tendil snipper is now being relieved by her new Tendril assistant Michael Eisner? Silly me.

Now what about the depth of this pool?

2/17/2004 11:48:15 AM

gordon

Utah

what only 50ft long ? ... ... the one i dream of is 200 ft. :)

2/17/2004 11:50:37 AM

Wichita, KS

I read a study on squash growth that was published in the 1920's or 30's. The scientists were focussing on root growth, and measured mature tap roots to depths of 20+ feet if my memory serves me correctly. The vine roots measured to depths of 4 feet on the mature vine, and the secondaries came out of the tap at depths of 6 feet. The older secondaries reached out a few yards.

This study is posted on the internet somewhere, but I don't remember where. I'll have to look for it.

2/17/2004 12:21:27 PM

moondog

Indiana

It seems the depth wouldnt be as important in a hydroponic setup. If the nutrients are available all of the time the roots wouldnt have to search for them thus not growing as much. Any thoughts??? also didnt somone grow an ag hydroponicly last year?
Steve

2/17/2004 1:06:33 PM

Desert Storm

New Brunswick

Iwent to a house plant party years ago. They were grown much like this. The plant was pulled from the soil and the roots completely rinsed clean. Then they were implanted in a special plant pot of what was possibly "clay"? pellets. They resembled "sugar pops" cereal. The bottom of the plant had holes in it and there was a tube affair with a water meter in it coming up one side. (to measure the depth of the water.) This pot set down in another pot, I believe, and water was added (complete with some kind of plant nutrient) to a certain leval on the meter. The plants grew in this and absolutely no soil whatsoever. It was a fad that I have not heard tell of in years. Anyone else know about this method of growing?

2/17/2004 3:44:13 PM

Wichita, KS

Here is teh link I mentioned
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch32.html
Excellent reading. I don't know how this translates into hydroponics. I've never grown anything hydroponically, but the idea is fascinating.

2/17/2004 4:43:36 PM

southern

Appalachian Mtns.

Cool info, thanxs

2/17/2004 5:01:00 PM

Desert Storm,

I remember those too. We had a bunch of them. They worked very well too. There was a red plastic float that went up & down with the level of the nutrient soultion. Looked like a thermometer right? My aunt sold them for a while. The deal was like Tupperware. Parties & such. .......Grrrrr It's tough getting old. Mom might remember the name.

Any how. No real concesus on depth yet? I agree the roots needn't search as hard to find what they need. So depth probably isn't a great issue.

Steve

2/17/2004 5:25:24 PM

CEIS

In the shade - PDX, OR

Steve - are you still working on the depth of your pits?

2/17/2004 5:29:27 PM

gordon

Utah

you might find these links interesting...
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question428.htm

http://www.gcsaa.org/gcm/1998/oct98/10watersavings.html

2/17/2004 5:30:48 PM

Ceis, No. For now the pits (36-48" deep) are done. There's been some settling & I've made arrangements for some aged Cow & Horse to bring them back to mounds come spring.

But like those 2 golf green links, I have this concept for an all engineered artificial rootzone. Hydroponics by another name. And for the greatest control over the engineered rhizosphere (rootzone), a swimming pool that is shaped to "fit" an AG would epitomize the concept.

Yes. For the record I have built USGA spec greens. A lot of work. And yes, the concept is similar. You really must have love for the grow-in or it'll ruin it for you & the golfers. But it's all worth it in the end when you hear that "plunk".

2/17/2004 6:23:37 PM

CEIS

In the shade - PDX, OR

Sounds interesting Steve.

Quite labor intensive I would think. I see where the 'swimming pool' effect would have to come into play due to the sprawl of the vines.

You are definately asking some good questions. I think you will need some assistance from some people that have worked with hydroponics on a large scale. Like hot house tomatoe production or something.

There is a big difference between hobbists and food scale production though.

2/17/2004 8:11:54 PM

Maybe just a hot tub for the stump. Then a 20" diameter half pipe for the main. With some 12" diameter half pipes for each secondary. Heck, secondaries could probably get by with smaller tubes than this. Where's Madman Marc? A system like this could easily be built for a few thousand. Probably less with used parts or eBay. Hmmmmmmmm......Any body in the Northeast got an unwanted hot tub lying around? Or maybe I'll dig out one of the pits & shoot the sides with Gunite.

Boy. There's nothing worse than Bill Gates' taste & a fertilizer salesman's budget! LOL

2/17/2004 10:14:02 PM

Mr. Sprot,

I had seen that before somewhere too. Very good link. It seems that more than 90% of the root system is held in the top 6" of soil.

2/17/2004 10:33:46 PM

Don Quijot

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Hey Steve, your idea is quite impressive and interesting. I can think in it wiht my mind, but my heart belongs to the Earth. I need to feel a good farm soil in my hands, at least once a day, if not I would get ill.

Carlos

2/18/2004 2:25:20 AM

Wichita, KS

yep, Tremor. Its been a while since I read the article. What struck me the most was that some of the roots grow super deep. I have to wonder what benefit the plant gets from travelling so far from the surface when the vast majority of the roots stay within the first 6-12 inches of the soil. But you are right, in a hydroponic environment it probably wouldn't matter. Even if the roots did grow out super long, they could just coil around in the shallow water, right?

Now I have a question (I know nothing about hydroponics)... Do you need to have a swimming pool? Instead, could you dig a trench, line it with plastic and train the vine into the trench? If this could be a lower cost project, I might try it in 2005. I would have to have a year to plan it into my budget. Of course, it would be nice to build a Disney style biosphere in my back yard, but heck, I don't want to wait the 40 years its gonna take to save up for my 5% share in the project! :-D

2/18/2004 12:24:41 PM

moondog

Indiana

The trench idea sounds good. It would get expensive fast I'm sure. I suppose you would have to fill it with clay balls or volcanic rock and the whole thing would have to be covered to prevent rain from diluting the nutrient solution. I suppose the plant wouldn't have to be as large as an average soil based plant either. I cant wait for spring!!

Steve

2/18/2004 1:20:54 PM

Mr S. (because I can't spell "Sprout" any more. LOL),

If AG's are anything like most other high order plants, then those really deep roots are seeking water. Nutrient exchange at these depths is quite minimal. No (or few) aerobic bacteria. So I'll bet these were water roots.

The trenches or half pipes would need to be slightly pitched. In greenhouses they are too. The low end has a recovery drain. Nutrients are directed back to the holding tanks from whence they came. Specific gravity & pH tests are regularly administered to check the integrity of the nutrient solution. It is then expelled once it's spent. Hopefully on another crop! LOL But it could be recycyled other ways too.

Outdoor models would pose the challenge of having to be switched open during rain events or the system would likely exceed storage capacity & the nutrient solution would become diluted by the captured rain. Good Point.

For a permanant greenhouse operation then something like a swimming pool would afford the durability we'd be after. But I would think fiberglass or any other plastic material that could be made waterproof (seams & fittings especially) would work just as well.

2/18/2004 1:42:55 PM

Steve,

Pricey? Yep. Probably cost prohibitive for most of us. Myself included. LOL But it's fun to dream.

Volcanic rock has been used by some hydronic growers. But it tends to be somewhat reactive (not a huge issue) & a little too sharp from what I've read. So root damage can occur. I have used Terracotta balls that were too large & light weight to anchor heavy plants like AG's. But they did work very well for lighter specimens.

Today, the SoilMaster & Turface MVP (that I sell) are favored by many hydroponic growers. They claim it's sized right for heavier plants to anchor. I do know the CEC & reactivity are just about perfect for a soiless mix or as an amendment. We sell piles of this stuff as a soil rootzone amendment. I even have one of our Hitters trying it this year. I'm just beginning to get back into Hydroponics but do intend to place a germination experiment into a homemade hydroponic planter soon. Just so I can I have done it & to observe the results. :o)

Steve

2/18/2004 1:43:06 PM

Desert Storm,

My Mom remebers that the name included the word "ECO" something or other. Does this ring a bell with you?

2/18/2004 1:43:53 PM