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New Brunswick and Nova Scotia

Does a fruit on the primary vine at 14 feet receive any
nutrient benefit from A/ the primary vine beyond the fruit,
and B/from secondary vines before or after the fruit?
I don't know if these plants have a retrograde circulation
though most assumptions seem to be based on that liklihood,
and I would love to know what others think. Thanks.

2/7/2004 1:58:38 PM

New Hampshire

I have been thinking about this very question. I heard there are some successful growers that prune the main vine right after the fruit. I don't have a knowledgable opinion. How about anybody else?

2/7/2004 3:10:58 PM

Norton, MA

I have something I'm working on right now. Look for it to be posted in my diary in the next few days.

2/7/2004 6:06:50 PM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

Jim,
You were very successful in 2003.... so it might help if you could let us know how you pruned your plants. What are all those other NH growers doing with regard to pruning? Many are very successful...
Martin

2/7/2004 7:56:55 PM

Ontario

I shouldn't be admitting this in public but I accidentially pruned off my main vine about 2 feet passed one of my pumpkins last season. I turned a secondary into the new main but it didn't end up giving any secondary rooting. I've noticed that in previous years that the secondary rooting past the fruit is minimal. One huge advantage is that it totally elimates stem stress. I would like to try this one purpose this year if I can get a fruit set out 20ft. by the 2nd. week in July. One draw-back is the lack of back up fruits. Your committed to the one pumpkin. BTW I got my second largest fruit despite the screw-up. 928 lbs.

2/7/2004 9:45:01 PM

New Hampshire

We all keep the main going past the fruit and on average trim out ever other side vine. No big secrets, just making sure the basics are covered.

2/7/2004 10:01:24 PM

Ontario

Not all people grow the main past the fruit. Some terminate the main at the fruit. I found very little rooting after the fruit so I'm begining to think that vine growth past the fruit my very well work as a sink rather than an asset.

2/8/2004 12:31:54 AM

ontario

Phil........my neighbour..........consider trimmimg off all secondaries past fruit, but let main continue on....won't go much past pumpkin once she is growing bigtime.....

2/8/2004 12:38:45 AM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Let me see, friends, the 1458 Whittier was set at 11.5' from the stump, and the plant ocuppied 972 sq ft. So that plant had to have a lot of plant after the fruit. Well, that point tells me, without doubt, that the fruit gets nutrients from the whole plant.

Carlos

2/8/2004 8:22:44 AM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

And the info I got from that 1458 plant is that the main vine got 50' long and secondaries about 12-15', so if the pumpkin only receive nutrients from the first part of the plant, it would be only 150 sq ft of plant giving food. And that doesn't sound logic to me. Instead of that is much more likely that the other 800 sq ft of plant after the fruit gave a lot of food to the monster.

Carlos

2/8/2004 8:32:01 AM

[email protected]

I stumbled upon a study somewhere (I'll try to link it later) where radioactive dye was injected into the phloem of cucrubita pepo at points both before & after the fruit. Tracing the isotopes proved that at various times of the day, sap movement was evident toward the fruit. But the guy was researching *speed* of movement. Not distance traveled as we would be interested in.

I find this question to be the most compelling subject what with my limitted space for growing. Hearing of folks tossing giants from 300^2 plants makes me even more determined to find the truth.

Steve

2/8/2004 9:29:57 AM

Applegate, Oregon

Interesting topic, and one I have been wrestling with as well. You look at the number of pumpkins grown between 10 and 15 feet out and one has to assume that the plant beyond the vine contibutes much. Yet, the 1385 was set at 23 feet and I believe the stump rotted. So it is obvious that both before and beyond the fruit contribute to fruit growth.

So this brings us to plant size. Quinn grows four over 1K each of which were on a plant under 400sq ft. Would they have been heavier with twice the plant? Dale

2/8/2004 10:56:10 AM

Ontario

Many ways to get to the same goal, a big pumpkin. Bryan and I keep most of the plant behind the fruit and the main is terminated about ten feet past with minimum secondaries. Those who choose to have a lot of plant in front of the pumpkin will experience greater weight gains in September. No real secrets just different ways at arriving at the same goal.

drew

2/8/2004 11:08:40 AM

[email protected]

This topic really does bring us back to the earlier discussions about Sink/Source relationships ("Joze" Joe Ailts) where we discovered that the size of a plant & the fruits relevant position on that plant helps determin whcih parts of the plant are contributing (source) & what parts are taking (sink).

All actively growing points (meristematic root tips & leaves) are sinks.

Fruits are sinks.

Mature leaves & roots are then "food factory" (or Source).

The frustrating thing about AG's is striking the correct balance in the Sink/Source relationship. In other words, a fruit set <10' from the stump might well enjoy a long main after set. Yet identical growth might be expected if a fruit was set 25' from the stump even if the main was terminated within 4' after the fruit.

The plant will use genetically guided receptor signaling to control the phloem transport from the various sources to the only sink we allow ( the fruit, but within reason) determined by our careful pruning (removal of unnecessary sinks) best determined by the given situation.

Years from now we might have some form of an "AG blueprint" (maybe written on a disc) that can guide us. Considerations such as genetic lineage, length of growing season, date of last frost, planting out, average daylength, desired harvest (weigh-off?), etc, might all serve as "user defined data inputs" to help patern growth goals.

Steve

2/8/2004 11:22:55 AM

Xylem (carries water and dissolved nutrients) can only flow forward. Phloem (carries food that plant produces dissolved in water...basically sugar water) can flow backward or forward to wherever the sinks are.

2/8/2004 11:32:25 AM

[email protected]

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=58988

2/8/2004 12:22:44 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Steve can you translate that puppy! It sure is a mouthful.

2/8/2004 12:54:41 PM

[email protected]

I'm sorry. I provided the wrong link. Here's the one I was meaning to share:

http://www.cas.muohio.edu/~meicenrd/ANATOMY/Ch9_Transport/lab9.html

And here is the quote that I found so interesting:

II. Phloem
The general flow of photosynthate within the phloem is from sources of sugar production (i.e. leaves) to sinks of sugar utilization or storage. The location of sinks relative to sources within the plant is dependent on what stage of ontogeny the plant is in and to some extent its environment, especially in temperate latitudes. This being said, the pathway of the flow of photosynthesis is determined by the anatomical organization of the phloem tissue in the leaves, stems and roots of a plant. In general, the pattern of phloem tissue follows that of xylem tissue in both primary and secondary tissues, but the flow within these two tissue need not have any relationship with one another. Translocation of radioactive carbon is commonly used to track movement of photosynthate within plants.
___end clip______________

Boy you have to balance computer time carefully when domestic pressures abound. LOL

2/8/2004 2:35:17 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

The average distance of the 19 pumpkins over 1200 lbs with data on the AGGC is 11.7' apart. Last year my four big pumpkins were further than 20' and I noticed that decision for three of the fruits were fine, the 795, 1032 and 1036, but for the 800 was bad. had I choosen an earlier fruit closer to the stump, this one grown in my 790 Daletas plant would have been bigger.
Why I know or think so? Because the vigour of this plant was much smaller a little bit before the fruit. The vine was thinner than 3' before, leaves smaller and growth slower. After watching that I remembered that the biggest fruit grown from the 790, the 1245 Bailey, was set at only 8' from the base. Had I followed Tim's footprints, would have been better.
Conclussion: you have to study and understand each one of your plants in the patch and realize what is best for her, every day, in order to take the best decision.

Carlos

2/8/2004 2:53:39 PM

Montoursville, PA

Phew...this further convinces me that the definition of an expert given by a good onion farmer friend of min is still right.

........is one who arrives at a conclusion not knowing in which direction he traveled because all tracks were covered with cross referenced uncomposted bull crap which confused not only himself but all who stroked their pointed chins and nodded yes. Upon second consideration they should have our help and pity because most can't tie their shoe stings either. Finally we should maintain their lifestyles because they would starve in the real world. I never met one, or one of their associates that could grow quack grass.

2/8/2004 2:54:39 PM

ontario

Drew .love your new handle........LOL

2/8/2004 5:11:42 PM

I'm with Gordon... GO UTES!

Love this thread, keep it going. I'm in over my head...
I'm just a semiconductor engineer, after all. But, last
night I was reading on some potential science projects for
my kids that *might* apply.

Hormones. (No, not those hormones!) Seems that this science
project suggests that you take two potatoes, cut one of them
up into sections that have one "eye" each. The other potato
you leave alone, with many eyes. Set them in soil and grow
them out. You will see that each "eye" of the cut
potato produces a plant, but the one whole potato that
wasn't cut will also produce only *one* plant. Why?

Experts suggest that there are hormones present in the
potato mush that selects only one eye to begin growing.

So it's a stretch, but I think there are a lot of
interesting things going on that we don't understand.

2/9/2004 12:29:38 PM

[email protected]

Cliff, If I'm correct the hormone you're after is ethanol based. I'll check later. Busy day!

2/9/2004 1:17:29 PM

Tipp City, Ohio

It would be interesting to see if food coloring would work (ie...white carnation stem split; one half to red the other to blue). If all waterings could be controlled with colored water, perhaps blue water on the plant before the pumpkin and red after. See what the results would be upon opening the pumpkin???

2/9/2004 8:35:22 PM

Deer Park, WI

That is a great idea! It got me thinking as well...Chalk this up as another crazy experiement to be done. In order to prove that photosynthate flows from sources in front of the fruit, one could allow nodal roots from a secondary or the main after the fruit develop in an enclosed container full of soil that is buried in the ground. This container would recieve only water that is dyed either a deep red or blue, as suggested above. Hmmmm....look for results to somehting like this later this summer...

2/10/2004 8:53:09 AM

[email protected]

Joe,

Let's talk. Some dyes are not dyes but rather suspended pigments that won't penetrate the root cells via osmosis. So they might have to be injected.

2/10/2004 10:52:14 AM

Norton, MA

Where can I buy a BIG needle for injecting dyes into the vine. I've got some plans for this summer. Alex.

2/10/2004 6:38:00 PM

[email protected]

Alex, I don't think you'd need a big one. Small precise placement is the ticket. The above offered link mentions using farmed aphid mandibles so as to minimize the negative impact on the vascular system. I had good luck last year with my used pre-filled glass needles. I juiced a pumpkin just inches from the fruit with gibberelins. The seeds were *HUGE* & many were malformed. So I know it got in. But there was no damage to the stem. Jabbing the phloem tubes is the key. Passive tranfer from the Zylem or the other non-vascular tissue will throw the results off badly I feel.

2/10/2004 10:47:20 PM

New Brunswick and Nova Scotia

I wish to thank the contributors for sharing both their wisdoms and their ideas. This has been a very thought provoking problem for me and I much appreciate your inputs.
Half dead crow

2/10/2004 11:07:01 PM