Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Engel's Great Pumpkins and Carvings

Indiana

I was not trying to cause a problem. I honestly didnt know who the gpc was or how it operates. I havent seen the previous arguments, except for this year. It still seems no one is happy with the way things are.
Steve

1/27/2004 2:47:06 PM

shazzy

Joliet, IL

some say they are all squash anyways so why the distinction.
i tend to think along these lines. there must be a
difference stated betweem true skin color and spotted color patches developing from external sources.

if the true skin color is orange, red, pink, white, yellow
then it is a pumpkin even if some of the true skin color
has some green mixed in too.

i saw a pumpkin last year grown by george j at our
weigh off that was orange all year and developed green
surface spotty patches that made it look close to under
75% orange. the pumpkin was stored in his garage due
gummy stem blight taking down his patch early. he said
it developed the green patches 2 weeks before the weigh off.
looking at it you would definately see that it was a
pumpkin with green surface markings, not a squash.

2 years ago i grew a squash that was deep dark green at
pollination and got lighter as the year went on, but still
remained green. because i took off the tarp, the top ripened
a bit from the sun turning the top yellowish. but clearly
it was still a squash that had some yellow surfacing and
lightened up from the sun.

and then this year, i had a pumpkin on the 620 boyton
that was white with a greenish hue all year then developed
a pinkish backside and had orange close to the rib lines, with green cantaloping surface marks. this one is a toss
up...awefully squmpy, definately more green then orange but i think it should still be considered a pumpkin because it contained orange white and pink in the true skin color along with the greenish hue.

a true squash shouldn't have any orange or pink or red
in its true skin color.

1/27/2004 4:07:59 PM

Phil H.

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Squash are green or grey and pumpkins are orange,red,pink, yellow or white. Cantaloping on pumpkins make the pumpkins look a bit grey or green, but they are still pumpkins. Jerry Rose's giant squash???,should have been judged as a pumpkin. There should be only 2 catagories, pumpkins & squash, squampkins are pumpkins. Its time to put this debate to rest and change the rules once and for all. Just my 2 cents.

Phil

PS. Maybe we can get this thing voted on and changed at the international convention in Niagara

1/27/2004 5:20:21 PM

pumpkinpiper

Bemidji, MN

Maybe there needs to be a color chart at each weighoff site that you can use as comparison. If you've bought carpet/tile/shingles before, then you understand what type of color chart I'm referring to. Pick a color, hold next to fruit, see results. If you can get color x in y % of fruit, then you have squash/pumpkin designation. Using something like this would atleast put all the sites on fairly equal footing in their rulings. Steve

1/27/2004 7:40:12 PM

Gads

Deer Park WA

Enough debate, how about forming our own official rules committe here at bp.com? One that Democratically votes on individual issues such as Squash/Pumpkin V.S hopes and wishes? I mean we are the growers lets collectively set the stage!

1/27/2004 11:20:05 PM

Stan

Puyallup, WA

A BP.com "Color Committee"? Since when is BP.com sponsoring weigh-offs? It is the sponsors that want "orange" pumpkins. They detest "green"! It is they who are putting up the money. It is called the "Golden Rule"...He who has the "gold".....rules! :>)

1/28/2004 12:25:14 AM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Stan I agree with you, but why is it the sponsors and the gpc committee have the only say. The growers are also a big part of this hobby. This debate is started every year normaly earlier than this. With no resolve. In the end it will be the same and the growers will be told if your not happy weigh your pumpkin or squash somewhere else or start your own weigh off. Sooner or later we will come together on this and start our own weigh offs. I dont understand why this issue can not be resolved.

1/28/2004 1:26:17 AM

gordon

Utah

Shannon-
the reason this issue can't be resolved is that many people have different opinions on what the rules should be...so no matter what you come up with some people will be unhappy. and typically the unhappy people are the vocal ones. it's kind of like the abortion issue pro-life vs pro-choice... no matter what the law is one group isn't going to like it.

... as far as everyone having their own weigh off's... it's not a bad idea but if that happens then we might have different weigh offs with different rules. which isn't bad in itself but will eventually cause some controvery among some growers.

1/28/2004 8:39:06 AM

lobsterclaw

French River,P.E.Island, Canada

As I understood Waynes post , it was for a Green Jacket for the heaviest true Green Squash Grown each year, That's ALL.

There was no mention of Tampering with or trying to Change
Rules that are put in place at Weighoffs.And there should not be.
The post from Wayne...as I read it, is for a "side bet" for lack of better words for the heaviest true Green Squash grown each year. He didn't ask or mention anything about trying to change the Rules that are in place now.

Lets have fun with this , read before you answer and stay on the subject at hand. If you want to stray from the posting at hand make your a different post.

Lets not beat this thread black & blue over other issues that don't belong.That's all.

Still a long time to planting

............Peter

1/28/2004 8:41:21 AM

Joze (Joe Ailts)

Deer Park, WI

I am in favor of Brett's #3. Squash and pumpkins same the same exact species. In other classes, tomatoes can be green or red, melons have stripes or no stripes, etc. A weighoff is not a beauty contest, it is a WEIGHT contest. HEAVIEST fruit WINS. If I grew a 1386lb, 26% greenie, I would be a little pissed that my prize would be a 1/10th of a 1st place orangie and recognition would be zero, for a fruit that would be considered heaviest official of all time! Sponsers shmonsers. I dont give a rats ass about sponsors. Let me say it again, this is a WEIGHT contest. Pessimists say sponsors would pull funds if green could take 1st place. Who cares? I'd rather grow that 1386 26% GREEN WORLD RECORD than a 1st place pumpkin any day. Wouldnt you??? I dont want to sound like a liberal, but we really shouldnt bias a fruit based on its color, thats racist! :) Just my opinion, dont mean to gas a fire here.

1/28/2004 9:00:30 AM

ontario

Thanks Peter...you stated it very well.....its about this new award.....I have my own opinion about the rule...if they change it because of this so be it,if not oh well.....this is an award for true green or blue grey squash....was not meant for arguing about color rules..there will be a ruling on the qualifications to win the Green Jacket though

1/28/2004 10:05:31 AM

Indiana

Ok after reading old posts on this site I have a question. I have seen "sponsers" mentioned as the reason for the rules. The total amount of prize $ paid out by the gpc last year was $9550 (See GPC news section in the message boards) The total # of GPC sites were 7 Canadian and 16 American for a total of 23. Each weighoff site pays a 500$ "site fee" which = $11,500 total. Thats $1950 difference where does that money go? Where did "sponsers" have anything to do with the prize monies paid out? Or am I completely missing the big picture here? Does the GPC have a website? If it does I cant manage to find it. Are the overall rules, bylaws and Plans of the GPC posted somewhere? Im not trying ot bust anyones chops here, I am just trying to figure the idea behind this organization.
Steve

1/28/2004 11:51:52 AM

Calif

Moodog Steve ,others
there are plaques and P.O costs.....the Gpc is a fine group. Really not much different than the group WK is starting with a preference to the true green ruling. the GPC has their preference to how they want to deal with the " unwanted '......no one wants the inbetweeners. we could start an orange green striped jacket and make the squmpkin a fun additive. But its not perfection? I think the GPC ruling is fair you know up front that 5 judges will be asked to make the call. One of the best methods I saw was at Borchards in Salinas Ca. in a very relaxed manner breezing by Tom asked random growers --squash or pumpkin what do you say? It was a vote by your peers. And of course probably best performed by the uninvolved in the question.....thats how he handled his weigh-off just loved it. What scared me years back is what Tom Beachy exclaimed....1386 WR----mottle green squash no one wants you..........Now Tom can do it --and when this happens we can all erase this horrible injustice and send the Squmpkin-W.R deemed squash no place to go------- -5.00 bucks and erase this nightmare ----forever---- We can do that for each other-----of course if the guy can & wishes to send a seed hey!--MB

1/28/2004 5:06:25 PM

Indiana

I like the idea about asking all the other competitors except the one in question. Squash or pumpkin?

1/28/2004 6:11:55 PM

Poppy

Peter: Is this not going to make pumpkin-squash growing like wrestling - boxing; a farce; so many belts -trophies that there is no achievement in any of them. Why can't the new idea's like green Jacket which I agree with not be incorpated into present associations. The present rules need changing, we all know that except the few that have control & will not change them. This color deal has been a sore thumb as long as I'v been growing and only makes for unleval playing field and hard feeling's; only my two cent's.

1/28/2004 6:14:04 PM

Poppy

Personally: I agree with Brett's # 2

Which one is the world record I believe Ben's 990 is; why screw up the squash growers just because us pumpkin growers try so many crosses to win & can't find a place for them; all others are pumpkins, face it. LOL

1/28/2004 6:41:02 PM

John D.

Connecticut, USA

I have truncated this thread back to a point where it had value.

Personal attacks will not be tollerated.

Please stay on topic.

1/29/2004 4:38:50 PM

huffspumpkins

canal winchester ohio

Joze I agree with you that everything should be lumped together, biggest wins. But if you are able to grow what you are wanting ( example, I get my huge 100% greenie, Stan may want a 1400+ orange one & so on ) then we should be happy with what we grow. If I don't win one cent I'm fine with that as all I want is a 1000+ green squash that will give me the seeds I need to grow all the huge green squash I want. If you want to win the prize money then do the work, search the seeds that gives you the best chance for 100% orange & big & grow that. Where this all went wrong was when folks started crossing in "tweeners" with thick walls to pure orange that might have had thin walls,thus you start getting seeds that throw whatever. We could argue the rest of our lives with changing the way to rule it for prize money, or we could look at what our goals really are ( personal satisfaction, or money) & then grow from there.........Paul

1/29/2004 4:45:55 PM

owen o

Knopp, Germany

I think that number 2 is the best option.

At our weighoff in Germany and in Switzerland a week later the organizers did not have a squash category at all. We had a few that were true green squash, the winner in germany was for that matter. I am not a squash grower yet, but one day I will be, at that time I hope that our organizer recognizes them as a separate fruit. The growers here explained to them the difference and I believe that they are leaning that direction. I hope that they go with the 100% true green as their option.

By the way, thanks John.

1/30/2004 4:44:13 AM

Indiana

Does anyone besides Mbrock have any answers to my questions?
or is this some type of secret or taboo subject?
Steve

1/30/2004 5:33:09 PM

huffspumpkins

canal winchester ohio

Steve, I think the $500 site fee is a one time shot, but I may be wrong.....imput please

1/30/2004 5:52:02 PM

huffspumpkins

canal winchester ohio

But don't get me started on sponsership & money needed for weighoffs. We have sponser money, membership money,seed auctions money,seed sale money & it's all needed for a weighoff..right ???
If I was going to hold a weighoff the way I look at it I need some basics, 2 certified scales ( a backup just incase), a couple of lifting devices & a forklift, & a score board. Most everyone who shows up can help out ,right ? Now everyone knows that the things I listed -forklift & scales you can usually get someone to donate just for the fee of posting a sign from their company.
I'm not worried about raising prize money ( we don't do it for the money,remember ? )
There we have it, you show up have your pumpkin officially weighed & can brag about beating your friends.
Where's the complication ?..................Paul

1/30/2004 6:02:28 PM

At the risk of starting a riot, I must ask;

Who are these sponsors?

1/30/2004 7:28:42 PM

LIpumpkin

Long Island,New York

I thought this was a color debate thread Moondog....

1/30/2004 7:34:25 PM

ontario

I think green is the subject LOL

1/30/2004 7:36:45 PM

Glenn is correct.

Brett #4 first choise. Brett #3 is also logical.

But who are these sponsors?

1/30/2004 8:13:40 PM

Choice. Excuse me.

1/30/2004 8:14:20 PM

Indiana

Lipumpkin
This is about the color debate. The GPC is the organization that has made the "color Rule". The GPC or someone who is speaking for them (with or without their blessings) always seem to claim that the sponsors want the orange color rule. I was simply asking what the sponsors have to do with this rule, due to the fact that the sites pay all of the $$ for the GPC prizes. No one from the GPC committee has ever given a response to any post about this (as far as i can find doing a site search). BP being the main forum for pumpkin and squash growers should be the place for the GPC to get involved and discuss this matter.
It seems to m that each individual site or organization that paid the 500$ should have a vote in how the color rule is decided.
Huffs I believe it is a annual 500$ fee but im not sure because I cant find any info about the GPC.
Steve

1/30/2004 9:45:52 PM

Drew Papez [email protected]

Calif

One of the hardest things to learn as you grow older is tolerance at least for me, especially now when we have the wonderful highway to express our opinions to many in a minute. Its questionable Sometimes?? and great other times.......Can anyone change each others convictions? it doesn't really happen much------ so most pass on the effort. But conflict---- as much as we hate it brings sometimes change worth the effort.

i know whats easy #2. and years back would have picked that one

but then was reviewing the book 3 and looked at the picture of Dave Stelts holding the plaque. ...worlds biggest pumpkin pg.20 and tried to picture it as 80% green...........it just didn't sit right. I really don't know why but seem to associate a pumpkin with orange.......simple reaction......money no money just a reaction.....MB

1/30/2004 11:04:38 PM

Randoooo

Amherst, WI

It would be easier if everything was lumped together, and the heaviest AG wins, regardless of color. I'm not saying that I want it that way, but it would be easier. Since AG's can vary so much in color from the deepest orange to the darkest green, you are always going to have those fruit that are "tough calls". I had one of those "tough calls" at the weighoff last year. The judges were very strong in their varying opinions. My fruit was deemed a pumpkin, and though I would have won more prize money if it was called a squash, it really didn't matter to me. Because what I remember most about that day is not when they handed me a check for placing in the contest, it was when that AG that I grew, hit the scale. That's the fun of it for me, and having fun is the goal. It makes no sense to argue with the judges who are volunteering their time so we can have a weighoff. Personally I tend to like growing the orange ones the most. It's just my preference, and it seems to be the preference of most of the people who tour my patch and also most spectators at the weighoff. The problem is that the orange ones that I prefer to grow seem to go light. Now if I was equally passionate about growing greenies, I would grow them even though it probably wouldn't be the heaviest fruit at the contest. We have to respect others, because you almost never can change someones opinion.

1/31/2004 10:02:55 AM

Ontario

Seems to me that there is only a handful of true squash growers trying to change the color rules.By saying that it has to be 100 percent blue,grey, or green and everything else is a pumpkin your forgetting an important point.Yes you are trying to encourage people to grow true green but your also encouraging people to grow whatever they want for pumpkin. In a couple of years you would have the ugliest pumpkins and diminish the importance of color for pumpkins. Lets face it, what would the crowds like to see more: a true green squash or a bright orange pumpkin like the 1385 Daletas. Lets not forget how the sport got so big, its pumpkins that got us here not squash. The vast majority of us want to grow pumpkins and we have to carefully select are seed for color purposes, if the 25 percent rule was not there we would not care about the color and orange would disappear all together and we would get multi color fruit that had no resemblance to a pumpkin and I think this would damage the reputation of the sport. I understand the importance of true green, but squash will never be as important as pumpkins in this sport, if we want to see this hobby survive. So having two categories as suggested, not a good idea( true green and everything else is a pumpkin) maybe 3 categories is a better idea but then true green would be a distant 3rd to the other 2 categories. My 2 cents

1/31/2004 11:43:12 AM

ontario

Drew I respect you but come on........last time I was at a weigh-off, not many bright orange monsters.....color on Ags changed along time back in the hunt for bigger fruit...not to many go after color anymore, just weight.....would be nice if only two colors ....but I doubt we will get back that way to soon...let me see most 723 Bobiers that are orange go light, but those pale yellow to creamy white go big time heavy......anyway not picking on Ags....just like to see real squash as squash..........................:0).....wayne

1/31/2004 11:59:22 AM

Andy W

Western NY

I'm betting that there have always been growers unhappy with the color rule for some reason or other, but with easier access to each other over the years (mallorn and now bp), opinions are quickly and more easily expressed, and you get a few people together who think the same way, and all of a sudden you have a movement going on. I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing, what i'm more interested is the overall scope of things (see new message thread by me). i'd really like to know if the rules are somehow changing the look of the atlantic giant for the future, with more orange becoming predominant. are we using more bright orange pollinators if we are going to have a white or light fruit? i know i am.

1/31/2004 12:26:59 PM

BenDB

Key West, FL

I like the in betweeners........

This debate just seems to be about who wants more prize money and who doesn't care about it.

#2 is the way to go

1/31/2004 1:18:14 PM

Indiana

I thought the basic idea was weight, not color, if we all wanted pretty orange pumpkins why not grow field pumpkins or prizewinners.
Steve

1/31/2004 1:44:19 PM

I may regret sharing the situation that I will use to support my opinion. It is not my intention to offend anyone. But my reputation as outspoken & candid is well deserved so here it goes:

I would vote for the "Three color rule":

Green = squash
Orange = pumpkin
Mixed = Mixed or "Squmpkin"

Why? Excludes no one. Encourages the development of "true color genetics". No penalties or hurt feelings at weigh-offs. Unlike the "no colors defined" this option won't penalize folks who breed for color traits at the risk of potentially lowering their weights. Yet all are free to exclusively breed on for weight since mixed colors are also judged & awarded in their own category.

The supporting situation:

Two state records may be used. One state has a record pumpkin that was more green than another states record squash. Read it again if you must.

Both are fine growers & gentlemen. Neither would likely choose this fate if given a choice. But in both states, some other grower was displaced in each color catgegory to make room for a questionable color ruling by a "visually challenged" official.

I would prefer to not name the states or growers though both are easily recognizable, frequent his website, & may chime in.

How can we support the current system if it wreaks this sort of havok on the integrity of our sport?

Just my $.02. Please let us not argue. This is nothing more than personal opinion to which we are all entitled.

Steve

1/31/2004 1:46:34 PM

it is what it is

Streator ,Illinois

I think the 25% rule has to apply for both classes. The need for a third class has come for the GPC,
with more people growing Atlantic Giants. With more seeds being planted and more crosses being made the colors are going to change.
Each site can have there own rules but when the weights are turn in to the GPC ,then the GPC rules are then followed , 25% rule for both pumpkin and squash and all others are considered a mix. And yes i do see a mix as being the largest fruit some day but it should not be call a pumpkin or a squash
Just my opinion Gene

1/31/2004 1:51:49 PM

Gads

Deer Park WA

Would all the pale orange or whiteish fruit be considered pumpkins or mixed? We have been trying to develope great shape, true orange and true green colors for years now and occasionally it does come at a high price in OTT weights (Gadberry 654.5 03), however we believe it is important to clarify the difference for sake of the sport.

Gerry

1/31/2004 4:29:06 PM

Calif

one thing we all can agree on is the scale is a solid tool for measure. when you bring in "us" to make calls then thats where imperfection enters the game. We want perfection cut and dry ha ha.. But we also have to rely on judges and refs in certain games and because its subjective and open to opinion there will be calls we don't like. And lots of opinions-- Especially when calls don't go our way. I have been growing for 10 years and attended 40 weigh-offs and conflicts are RARE But in all the questionable situations the bottom line was a heavier specimen was bumping some one. Probably as it should be. Sure back in 97 when Chris A.. mottled green pumpkin beat my all green Show king it wan't right cause I lost and after years of therapy i come to accept his was bigger. I have seen a few times where the biggest at the weigh-off maybe had more than 25% green and the guy 2nd was bent------and after years of therapy he accepts he lost to he heaviest. Somehow in all the weigh-offs this theme has rung true.....cont..

2/1/2004 3:21:47 PM