From

Location

Message

Date Posted

New Brunswick and Nova Scotia

To trim or not to trim...and where to trim? Does anyone really know something definitive of a vine's circulation of nutients. While some trim off tertiaries and some or lots of
secondaries, others want 1500 leaves as fuel to push growth.Is there any knowledge as to whether there is return
of nutrients from a secondary which would help the fruit
growing on the main vine beyond the secondaries origin? Is
there anyone with this botannical knowledge??

1/11/2004 4:56:04 PM

Montoursville, PA

Nope! Don't think so. No matter what the size of the food factory or red zone leaves shading other leaves, in my opinion, tend to block circulation of air and the use of direct sunlight, in the shaded leaf's purpose and use. I know that to many leaves blocking other leaves makes foliar feeding and other treatments, as determined neccessary, more difficult to apply properly.

1/11/2004 5:28:13 PM

[email protected]

According to those who went on the New Hampshire summer patch tour this past summer, the heaviest hitters are keeping their plants quite trim. 350 - 500 sq ft might sound small, but that seems to be the trend of late.

20 foot secondaries. 10 feet per side.
Every other secondary removed.
All tertiary vines removed.
Rarely more than 6 more feet of main after the set.

I wasn't there myself. But this is what I've heard.

Steve

1/11/2004 6:54:26 PM

Knopp, Germany

I heard the same thing Steve. Someone called it the New Hampshire Pruning Plan, i am gonna try it on at least one plant this year.

1/12/2004 1:15:05 AM

Walkerton Ont

i heard this from back home,

1/12/2004 8:49:15 AM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

I did as Steve said, but only cut secondaries when too close, and never end the main.

Carlos

1/12/2004 2:16:22 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Steve, Dwaine, Carlos.

So then, how many secondaries per side for christmas tree and how many secondaries for a flag pattern?

Thanks/Glenn

1/12/2004 9:32:49 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

About 12-15 I let last year per side, in both patterns.

1/13/2004 2:51:53 PM

Montoursville, PA

I determined from whatever I had last year that a leaf shading a leaf situation is of little value. I will determine how close and how many as this year's plants develop. Those leaves need direct sunlight and air circulation to ward off disease. I also need safe access to weed and chase the buggies.

There can't be a specific answer to this because of differences in plants. It must take away from the pumpkin if the plant has to maintain leaves and grow vines that don't get enough light to produce enough to maintain themselves.

1/13/2004 3:40:01 PM

[email protected]

I have no idea. This speaks to the Sink/Source relationship that's been bantered about but not yet elevated to a science. YET. (or has it?) I believe that at some point a working model or "Plant size:Fruit location" set of standards will be established as a *suggestion* for vine training & size based on fruit set location. But as Dwaine points out, genetics is probably going to influence this enough so it would remain just a suggestion.

We'll see in time.

Steve

1/13/2004 5:11:28 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Thanks guys. I didn't think that there would be a definitive answer due to the number of possible variables involved.

Glenn

1/13/2004 5:38:20 PM

Montoursville, PA

Observation provides averages already! A single fruit out 10 - 15 ft. on the main. Aprox 500 sq. ft. of patch. Secondary vines 10 ft. each way on X-Mas Tree. Burry the vines. Keep weed free. Similar totals of secondary vines maintained on any other growing pattern. 6-8 ft with three secondaries on a side beyond the fruit. Use manures, compost, mineralization. Step back and grow the patch first.
Support good living soil with fish, kelp and molasses fed through the leaves.

You can add to but it is difficult to succeed by taking from or not using these basics.

Above and beyond the above growers experiment. Below that patch size average some have been successfull.

1/13/2004 10:32:09 PM

Deer Park, WI

Steve to answer your question, yes sink/source relationships are indeed scientifically based. THis is common knowledge in the plant world. Everything I have posted regarding it was scientifically knowledge, not hypothetical reasoning.

1/14/2004 8:47:00 AM

[email protected]

Joe,

I know. What does still seem subject to debate is the actual relationship between fruit location & ultimate vine shape. By that I refer to the variety of locations fruit might set versus how much more foliated vine should remain. There just doesn't yet seem to be a printed formula or consencus that I am aware.

My bad. Sink/Source is absolutely proven to be real. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. I personally need to learn how to best apply it to AG pumpkins.

Joe, If any hard & fast rules exist in print, I'd love to see them. Heck, I'd pay good money for them! LOL

Steve

1/14/2004 5:47:49 PM

Rhode Island

so trim away how many [including myself] pruned the hell out of a plant and wished for few more "greenies" come october 1st

1/14/2004 7:37:30 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Joe, thanks for your input. I did read your posts earlier on sink/source and it helped to spawn my question about average number of secondaries. I also remember reading somewhere (most likely this site) that an AG plant will produce "up to" 2 lbs of fruit per leaf but that would all come into question when you factor in sink/source.

1/14/2004 9:13:22 PM