Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Ontario, Canada.

PROFILE, soil amendment.
http://www.profileproducts.com/golf/golf_2.html
Has anyone heard of this or tried it out.

12/31/2003 5:05:27 PM

I sell it, use it, & recommend it. Raises CEC, adds porosity, improves drainage, & unlike organic materials (which are still vital), lasts at least 100 years in the soil.

Steve

12/31/2003 5:30:02 PM

Montoursville, PA

The only thing I could possibly see it would hurt would be your wallet. You will have to determine what this product might do for a patch maintained at 5% to 10% humus or higher. I see it as a most expensive flusher type last gas effort to ammend tortured and wasted soils. It contains nothing that will build the biological side of the garden and nothing that even helps the chemistry side. Worse yet not a touch of carbon exists naturally in this product. It is a very expensive water holding and flushing creation by the hands that ruined the soil it purports this can fix. All the problems it does not fix would not be there in the first place if the soil husbandry were reasonably correct in the past years of use.

The places of use being trouted are all wasted, tortured, compressed toxic waste dumps needing a good flush and last hope ammendments that aren't really living materials, or existing minerals or needed trace elements.

It might last a hundred years because it adds nothing to the soil that rebuilds the soil. Nothing in it is being used by the soil. It does not even hold space in the soil. It only holds space within it's own structure. It will no doubt make a tidy space within the inner lining of your wallets.

12/31/2003 9:11:05 PM

JMattW

Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

So, what does that stuff run costwise?

12/31/2003 11:34:06 PM

Dwaine,

I don't get it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with adding oxygen to soils. There is nothing wrong with improving drainage or CEC either. The mere fact these products are used to remediate tortured soils is no reason to allege that people who USE these products advocate the torture of soils. This is absurd! They're used to remediated destroyed soils only because the WORK! But naturally heavy soils aren't created by the hands of man. And 20% Organic Matter soils aren't naturally made by the hands of Mother either. Only man strives for soils that are this spongy. Not that spongy soils are bad. But they don't just happen by themselves either.

Adding oxygen to the soil DOES help to stimulate the microbial activity within the soil. Indeed if a compactable heavy soil has organic amendments added to it & it's then allowed to recompact, the soil microbes will die. So in this case, Calcined Clay used with organic amendments will save the day for the microbes. They need oxygen too.

I have Bonsai Trees that in my care have lived in tiny pots for over 15 years in soiless mixes made of 70% Calcined Clay & 30% Peatmoss. I repot them every 2-5 years depending on their age. They THRIVE on this form of "torture". But when it's time to repot them, it's not the clay particals that have failed. Rather the roots overgrow the space in the pot & the Peatmoss degrades to nothing. I do use organic fertilizers on them. But the pots are too small to completely readjust the %OM lost every year. This is perfectly normal. In a pinch if I run out of Soilmaster, I've been known to rescreen the calcined clay, add fresh Peatmoss, & then re-pot the tree. No problems doing this at all.

continued

1/1/2004 12:37:25 AM

In a worst case scenario, a heavy clay soil would benefit from as much as 2 lbs of calcined clay per square foot. Here in the very expensive Northeast (where freight bills drive the cost WAY up) Pro's Choice Soilmaster & Profile's Turface (both are nearly identical & cost about $.16 per lb bagged) will cost $.32 per square foot to use. That's $320.00 per 1,000 sq ft. That's very expensive if it only lasted as long as Peat Moss, compost or manure. They degrade (into very good stuff) in as little as 3-5 years. But then they have to be replaced. We have statistical proof that Calcined Clay lasts at least 30 years (though probably closer to 100 years) because that's how long it's been in use.

So if it only lasted for 30 years, then the cost per year of improved aeration & drainage is a modest $10.67 per 1,000 square feet per year. NOTHING that does this much costs this LITTLE.

None of this negates the need for good soil biology gotten by the use of quality organic amendments. And no one I know is claiming that should be the case. We're at 20.9% OM & I still use Pro's Choice. Here on the sandy coast, it's the only way to permanantly effect the CEC without trucking in clay. And that would create more problems than it might solve.

continued

1/1/2004 12:37:59 AM

Those little spaces that Calcined Clay holds open in the soil become home to air, water, & nutrients. Most of the larger mineral elements of soil (like sand & silt) also contribute no nutrition of their own. But we don't throw them away just because they're not as good at holding onto nutrients as Turface & Soilmaster. Though when given the choice (such as in Bonsai), I would (and do every time) in a heart beat. The fastest way to kill a Bonsai is to use a 10% OM garden soil in the pot. The tree will die in very little time.

The bottom line here is that nothing we can do to improve any soil will last as long as Calcined Clay. And for folks who are in this for the long haul who are trying to improve clay, nothing else will do as much to improve aeration.

Calcined Clay done right once. Good organic amendments every year forever. Then we're really cooking.

Please give it some thought.

Steve

1/1/2004 12:38:07 AM

LIpumpkin

Long Island,New York

Oh Boy....As soon as i saw Dwaine's post i knew Tremor would hammer him....lol...Happy New Year guys !..disfunctional maybe, but still my family !...lol

1/1/2004 1:07:46 AM

ontario

Russ.......go to your local Co-Op......you can by.....perlite and vermiculite in commerical size bags for approx......21.00 per bag...( BIG BAGS)..I add 1/2 a bag of each ever year to each site....has increased my CEC levels alot......opens up soil as well....gives it good tilth....I have sandy loam soil and I add a 20 kg bag of cat litter...yes catter litter(clay pellets) to each site as well....I know one big grower down east added a few tons of clay to his sandy soil.....hmmmm......he had two 1000 lbers from that new addition .....:0)

1/1/2004 9:05:25 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Thanks Wayne. I called the Co-op a while back. They carry two grades of vermiculite. Which type do you use.

1/1/2004 9:44:12 AM

ontario

Russ try the coarse grade.....don't forget the perlite though...:0)

1/1/2004 9:54:01 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Steve, as always a very usefull discussion thanks for your help. I have a few more questions for you.
I began my search for a soil type of magic bullet at the NASA web site. It slowly lead me to a search of new golf course construction which I found interesting. I remembered a conversation years ago my father had with a greenskeeper about reducing soil compaction on newly built greens. Profile, came up in an article search from the USGA.
Is it organic?
Is it similar to vermiculite?
who distributes it?

1/1/2004 9:54:27 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Wayne,
Friday mornings trip too town includes a stop at the co-op to pick up four bags of course vermiculite. You better watch out, Wayne I can here my green squash seeds sprouting already. They can't wait to get their feet down into my soil.

1/1/2004 9:59:34 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Dwaine, I need an anti-compaction agent in my main areas. Up here I have started with a clay base. It gets harder than rock in the summer. No amount of boards to walk on can prevent it from compacting. Also, plans are underway for development of Patch # 4. I,m afraid if I bring in any more soil I may be single again by spring time.

1/1/2004 10:07:09 AM

Montoursville, PA

Get the book: Dear Dirt Doctor, Howard Garrett, Univ. of Texas Press. under $20.00. Your answers and direction are clearly defined with the use of available living elements of compost. There is no short cut real soil building improvement you can just shake out of any bag. Do it right it will go with you as improved soil and practices for the rest of all time you will use it.

1/1/2004 10:31:20 AM

Pro's Choice makers of "Soilmaster" website:

http://www.proschoice1.com/

Toll Free: 888-424-7672
Phone: 312/321-1515
Fax: 312/321-9525
Email:[email protected]

_________or_________________________________

Profile Products makers of "Turface":

http://www.turface.com/

I don't know who distributes these in Canada. It isn't us though. I would email each of them to find out. If they give you any grief let me know. I can contact them.

Both are made from 100% Natural clay that is mined on opposite sides of the same highway in Mississippi, then fired. Being natural doesn't make them organic. There is no carbon in clay. But they are chemically inert & possess a CEC of around 33. Sand is natural & not organic. But sands CEC is practically nonexistant. And sand is too heavy & regular in size to offer good aeration. (Think paving stone bases here)

1/1/2004 10:41:12 AM

NASA has conducted root zone experiments on the shuttle using these products in Wheat experiments. They're a natural in space because they con be easily contained in a gravity free environment. Hydroponic gardeners use them as well.

The advantages on golf greens are the same as for us. Compaction-Aeration-Drainage.+ We usually get around the compaction/aeartion issue by constantly tilling our soils. Golf Greens & athletic fields can't be tilled to add amendments as often as needed. So stuff that lasts is critical in these situations.

With all the emphasis on reducing rootzone compaction of AG's, these products are a natural addition to our organic amendments. We all use walking boards. But sometimes we have to step off. This is our solution. I am very surprised more AG growers haven't tried these materials.

Unlike Perlite, roots don't permanantly bond to calcined clay particles. So it lasts. Even when we rip up the stump, a quick shake releases the particles back to the soil.

The only thing that comes close in quality is a rare Japanese volcanic sand, but the freight makes it even more expensive. There are some domestic sources for volcanic amendments. If they're properly sized, I wouldn't rule them out either. Just watch the potash levels. These can unbalance a soil if overused.

Steve

1/1/2004 10:41:20 AM

Montoursville, PA

I guess this is a let's get back to basics question: Fact there is only one way to build soil and that is well known to all. This magic fix it product does not fix anything. Without the elements of the living, including chemistry and carbon, biological liquers and such, plus water and gases required being created and made usable by the elements of the product nothing can possibly happen. As far as I know there is no movement to grow the great pumpkin in a soiless medium. As far as I know there are few if any growers growing in or on nuked, compressed or distressed soils that could not be brought back to life with healthy use of the living elements and natural soild or gaseous content of the patch. There are always a few exceptions to a general claim.
Yes surely there may be one somewhere that may be outside of average good gardener.
....This product will do nothing for or against any soil it is added to. It holds space and structure only within itself not between itself. It creates nothing. It can not help anything that is there without natural help being added the same as if the majic wand were not there.
....It has no special promise to any soil building program outside of holding air and water. Nothing special there either! If it is holding air there is less water being held and if it may be holding water there are less gasses being held. If there is nothing healthy between this space holding product there is nothing going to need more water or oxygen.
.....And finally when something like this comes along the major players always drag out their experts and examples. They have indeed done just that. Funny I see no gardens and or pumpkin patches. I see no more than what the manufacturer drags out. Where's the pumpkins??? Where's the soil improving content of this product as it relates to a patch your average gardener is rebuilding or working with to bring about a healthier level of real living soil?

1/1/2004 11:12:20 AM

And for the record I would NEVER hammer Dwaine. But Dwaine & I enjoy hammering subject matter into truth. Privately & publicly. Get the two of us debating a subject, and you get more good information flowing than imagineable sometimes. Like Siskel & Ebert. Look what happens when one half is missing. Less than one half the truth. :0)

1/1/2004 11:12:36 AM

Too new & expensive for Pumpkins Dwaine. We're a thrifty & conservative lot. "Old School" some would say. Calcined Clay was only first experimented with in the '50's. Only used in Golf Fairways for the past 25-30 years.

Now I have clients who produce Television & Professional quality Athletic & Golf turf all over the Metro NY area. And when the non-labor budget gets up to & over $6,000 per acre per season, Calcined Clay modified root zones are *always* a reality.

As long as someone aspires to continuously raise the bar at the weigh-ins, new technology won't be ignored for long.

Someone will be first. Who will it be?

1/1/2004 11:21:04 AM

Montoursville, PA

Mo. has more than garden centers behind this product! They are into your wallets big time all in the interest of soil husbandry, of course.

Let's see now.....they take simple natural clay from two sides of a Mo. road. That's important. It has to be in Mo.
Then they fire it from simple clay into some sort of a spoungy ignous state that may take up to a hundred years to break down and become usable to plant life. But it does hold air and water.

I would rather take the poop from the rear end of one cow, horse or rabbit and some leaves dumpped into the soil and tilled to work with the simple clay that was there the first place. This improved direction begins immediately upon the addition of the elements of compost. Thousands and millions of gardens the world over use this process without the help of those clay blasting clay popping fellows from Mo. The only magic they have is in the minds of the art departments and advertising poop sheets. Calling that advertising a poop sheet is almost insane too.

1/1/2004 11:55:59 AM

Montoursville, PA

Oh yea.........I have a source of good manure for you no matter where you live. Take a little trip into the countryside and go meet a local farmer. Develop a working relationship. In no time you will have endless supplies of possible compost elements.

My cost in North Central Pennsylvania is an average of about $20.00 a cubic yard for manures or composts of manures and or mushroom waste. However I outright purchase only about half. Much is free for the asking. Never the less a hundred bucks will really hammer the good stuff into a thousand sq. ft. patch even if you have to purchase it.

Mix with a copious amount of leaves. That's one heck of a good patch pattern or habit to establish and maintain. In five years or less you will need to consider reducing the fertiliztion to a maintenance level. Your humus content will be over 10% in three years.

Your 1000 lb pumpkin could appear anywhere along the way but the norm in my mind is three to five years to get there.
Meanwhile you and the patch will improve together.

1/1/2004 12:08:42 PM

ontario

Russ you can buy Turface.....turf grass amenment at PLant Products in Brampton.green seeds.the 756.8* Russ LOL

1/1/2004 12:43:25 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Doc. In my quest for the holy grail and to beat Wayne. I have decided to leave no stone unturned or clay as it were. Seams to me as though it might be worth a test. In an area that I might wish to try a few other plants.

1/1/2004 2:56:19 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Wayne, thanks for the heads up! I can't find it on the Plant Products web site though. Do you have a link for Green Seeds. Ps Did you mean Ken's 756.....LOL?

1/1/2004 3:13:01 PM

Gads

Deer Park WA

I think Doc's correct on this one, build the soil with organic's, and the rest is individual effort. So Doc, how much aged manure and compost is to much in my clay soil? We are into the second season of amendments to a raw (10,000 sqft) patch. So far we have added fifty yards of cow manure and compost, with a cover crop on it now.

1/1/2004 3:25:48 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Gad's I know this is getting silly. I mean were do we stop with the amendments. But this one may be the answer. This stuff is used on golf greens to reduce compaction and maintenance and it works. lots of tech behind this. Heck it even went on the shuttle. Probably is too costly for large scale use. It sure is a challenge finding these ideas though. Signing off for the Rose Bowl game.

1/1/2004 3:45:24 PM

ontario

Russ I phoned them a few months ago.......they still had Turface.....its good stuff and I was also planning on trying it.......

1/1/2004 3:52:22 PM

southern

Appalachian Mtns.

I see Steve's point
I see Dwaine's point
There's middle ground somewhere...what if one went organic AND used a lil' help opening things up a bit for O2 and H2O?
My soil compacts badly, even with the use of boards, leaves, poop, etc. Heck, it compacts so badly that algae grows on top of it...I'm open to trying just about anything at this point.

1/1/2004 4:19:04 PM

Ontario, Canada.

They also use this on football & baseball fields. I often wondered how sod can set so quickly on a newly laid field. I have seen a game this year in which the sod was down for only two weeks. It had firmly rooted and hardly any chunks had been torn up during the game. This stuff works!

1/1/2004 4:21:23 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Kyle, try you might like it. Check out the link from above. i only did a little research. But steve seams to like it. As dwaine says it can't take the place of good old leaves and manure buy it will reduce compaction and increase CEC.

1/1/2004 4:25:49 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Wayne I will call in the morning.

1/1/2004 4:26:21 PM

This is getting silly.

No one is saying to not use manure. But manure or Peatmoss in small quantities on heavy clay can make matters worse. So we use both.

Use BOTH!!!

DO NOT ABSTAIN from using manure. Use it every year! Just be careful about exceeding the 3.5 - 4 yards per 1000 guidelines. No where on this thread did anyone ever say to not use manure. Read every word! No where!

Jeez!

Steve

1/1/2004 5:57:45 PM

ontario

Russ....listen to Steve.......he is right on the mark......manure is still a good thing to add though...but anything to help out can't hurt....hey people thought it was crazy to add cat litter...hmmm.wonder why another grower trucked it in....raises the CEC level.....guess that just might be a good thing......if you want some top products check out the companies who sell turf amendments....golf courses have to be in TOP shape...Tremor knows his stuff........

1/1/2004 6:41:12 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Thanks Wayne. Golf courses are the key to this stuff. If it works for them it will for us too. I have added many many, yards of leaves and manure this year. Just looking for an edge to mute my heavy clay soil.

1/1/2004 7:48:02 PM

Ontario, Canada.

An article from the Toronto Bonsai Society. Turface - Looks a lot like akadama, but is not. This product is used for the aeration of grass on golf courses and baseball diamonds. It sometimes has chemicals added to it and is used to soak up oil spills or for use as cat litter. Don't use either of these products. Turface is usually only available in fifty pound bags, from turf supply companies and generally not available at places like WalMart or Home Depot. Essentially it is clay that has been heated in a fire until it becomes hard and will not decompose (turn into mud) with prolonged exposure to water. If you were to take a terra cotta pot and crush it up, you would have essentially the same thing. Each particle is full of tiny holes which absorb water and release it back to the plant slowly and its pH is relatively neutral. Proper sifting of a 50 pound bag will net you about 25 pounds of usable material for bonsai. Use the rest to aerate your garden.
by Randy Clark, Charlotte, NC

1/2/2004 9:23:35 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Another Bonsai product - Haydite
Haydite - Haydite is the rock equivalent of turface. It goes by a variety of different names (haydite, permatill, staylite, etc.) and comes in different colors (brown or gray mostly) depending upon what local you obtain it from. Historically, it is the primary ingredient used in the manufacture of concrete blocks to make them lighter. Only in recent years has its value as a soil amendment been discovered. Haydite is actually expanded pieces of shale or slate. The term "expanded" means it has been heated to over 2000 degrees which causes this already porous rock to become even more porous. Like the turface it is full of tiny holes which absorb water and release it back to the plant. Some research even indicates haydite releases water more readily than does the turface. Depending upon where it comes from, haydite can be slightly pH acidic, which can be easily corrected by adding a little bone meal to your soil mix.

1/2/2004 9:30:23 AM

Folks don't have to sift Pro's Choice or Turface for bonsai any more.

They're both sold in 2 grades.

Regular "Soilmaster" is a very consistent larger particle of the size we want for gardens & other areas where size isn't critical. Turface MVP is the same size.

"Soilmaster Select" is the "fines". Good for bonsai, professional league infield moisture/compaction management, & golf green topdressing operations. Costs more & we don't need the small size anyway. Turface Pro-League is the same size.

We also sell different colors. Pointless for us.

This material is very different from cat litter. Soilmaster's parent company is OilDri. They produce & private label 25% of all the cat litter sold in the US. They also produce a version that is a popular pesticide carrier for granular products. These usually disolve when exposed to water.

The clumping versions are also different. Clumping litter is made from Bentonite. Also used to improve the conductivity of earth ground rods, capping of contamination sites, sealing porous pond bottoms, etc.

continued

1/2/2004 10:16:25 AM

Sold as a dust, the montmorillonite clay is used to aid digestion, nutrition, & the flowability of livestock feeds. Health food stores also market dietary supplements made from this one.

Montmorillonite clay is also sold as "Azomite" for the same as a feed additive & is also used for it's plant nutrient value.

But the version we want to improve soil porosity is Montmorillonite clay that has been fired in kilns not unlike the process used to procuce a terra cotta flower pot. That's where the cost comes into play. It takes vast quantities of Natural Gas to fire Soilmaster & Turface. So they're produced as close to good reserves as possible. The selling price fluctuates with the cost of energy & transportation.

I sell 50 lb bags & can also broker 18 ton loose bulk deliveries. Prices range quite a bit based on the mileage from the plants in MS where both are produced. This location offers the producers both the nergy needed & the source clay.

Steve

1/2/2004 10:16:40 AM

Ontario, Canada.

How much time and money is spent dealing with soil maintenance problems that could be avoided if only your root zone was in better condition?

It's basic soil physics and agronomics. Better soil structure -- specifically,the increase of permanent, non-compacting pore space -- leads directly to better root zone results. Porous Ceramics and Calcined Clay are scientifically proven way to add permanent porosity to your soil, which leads to positive growth response.

Permanent......porosity!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This will help my sun drench, wind blown flower beds too. The area here is subjected to lengthy dry periods in the summer and water is costly. Along with a good mulch cover I know now what needs to be done.

1/2/2004 10:33:14 AM

ontario

ok Russ no excuses now.......1000 lbs.....:0)

1/2/2004 10:48:11 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Wayne, baseball coaching may get in the way.
To infinity and beyond.......Gotta get busy building the watering systems and green houses.

1/2/2004 11:13:36 AM

pumpkinpal2

C N Y

HOLY smackers! i'm gonna hafta devote an afternoon to read all this info!

1/2/2004 2:33:13 PM

ontario

Russ looks like your already planning the excuses LOL.....just teasing you.......

1/2/2004 3:39:01 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Its gonna be a fun season with my new anti-compaction soil enhanced with self aerated compost laden, Manure injected, triple irrigated, frost proofed, PH nutrefied, calcified, magnesium laced, iron fortified, cec increased, molasses sweetened, bacteria innoculated, corn meal boosted, turfaced, hormone stimulated, greensand dressed, vermiculite stuffed, Diaclam baked, Vulcanized, compost tead, calcined cassius clayed, kitty littered and amounts of perculated perlite to produce a 3 patch Lanterra pumpkin plantation of pleasurement. LOL>>>>>>>>>>
Wayne if this can't produce a thousand pounds come and get me from the looney bin next fall. Because by then I'm sure to be stupified. LOL............

1/2/2004 4:39:10 PM

CEIS

In the shade - PDX, OR

Vermiculite, pearlite & pumice are all good to open up the soil.

If you got deep pockets and can afford it - I'd go with the calcined clay.

Such a crazy obsession this AG growing is!

1/3/2004 12:54:55 AM

ontario

Russ add some rocks.I hear that works for Quinn Werner ROFLOL

1/3/2004 10:00:34 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Wayne, I already haev them....My wife, say's I have rocks in my head. LOL

1/3/2004 2:50:46 PM

Montoursville, PA

When Noah created the looney bin, his ark, to save all life, on earth he revealed the only known absolute lie in the good book: "2 X 2" it says. Come on now...how could this many braying donkeys come from just two?

Noah there in and for all time therafter became the first to over nitrate and befowl the waters of the earth. That much crap going overboard had to have some befowling action. :)

1/4/2004 10:52:39 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Found This Schultz Clay Soil Conditioner. Improves drainage and aeration in heavy, compacted clay soils, and helps improve water and nutrient retention in dry sandy soils. Made from 100% arcillite, a naturally derived mineral that is kiln-fired to create porous ceramic granules. Each granule contains thousands of tiny storage spaces that hold water and air in nearly perfect balance. Outperforms peat moss and gypsum! Just one application lasts year after year.
http://www.schultz.com/procc.htm

1/8/2004 2:24:45 PM