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syracuse, ny

hi, knowitall pumpkinpal here...i thought i was being really smart by putting Captan 50% wettable powder in my seed-starting mix at the rate of 2 tablespoons per lukewarm gallon of water. well, for reasons i can't remember, i used twice as much this year. 4 tbsp. per gallon. my seeds all seemed to take an extra day to come up, weren't quite as
happy to see me as last year, and since then have been very
slow to exhibit their true leaves, and just generally look
about half the size they should. i had thought i was just being impatient, and to wait a little longer, but they definitely don't look like they are ready to take on the Big Patch just yet! so i called Bonide, who makes Captan, and i really felt 2 feet tall telling the lady what i had done and she said 'wow....that's a lot!' okay strike one, also it doesn't say anything about cucurbits at all on the
cardboard can of the stuff...strike two, and lastly it is not supposed to be used as a soil inoculant, it is to be used as a spray to wet the leaves and generally the plant with. strike three, i'm out! and we'd all like to know about the seed-dusting that takes place with the Captan as well, as i have heard about it quite often, and is it an acceptable practice??? are there any ill effects? i'm no (longer a) reliable source of Captan information, and i want y'all to learn from my mistake!
my intent now is to put the seedlings in a rack of some sort, like a dish rack (doe!) and simply water the heck out of them, for like 3 days, with a proper drainage period to prevent drowning the roots as well...
another suggestion to me was to basically remove the plants from the original peat pots and rinse the roots off and re-plant in other starter mix, Captanless, but i think that would be far too risky. another problem created by trying to prevent the dreaded damping-off fungus! let me know of your suggestions, if any. thanks! 'pal

5/7/2003 6:51:23 PM

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Pal,
I never heard of soaking seeds in Captan nor adding it to soil in water (drench) until visiting this site. I said nothing because some of these guys have been doing it successfully for years. I treated my seeds to a very light Captan 50 dusting & can't say as it's caused any problems. The untreated checks were no more or less vigorous as far as I can tell.
As a foliar treatment I have no intention of using Captan. I'll keep it for stem splits & nothing more. There are many better fungicides for broad spectrum foliage & root disease control anyway.
We also hear of folks using Subdue as a seed treatment. This is actually illegal too. Even though the active ingredient is approved for seed treatment, that material contains a dye indicator so that folks who might handle the seeds know they've been treated. That version of Subdue is called Apron.
If you're sure the Captan is slowing down the seeds, there is hope of fixing the situation without causing still more stress on the root systems. Get a hold of some "Grow-Safe" activated charcoal. Perpare a liquid slurry as per the instructions & water each pot til the stuff is running out the drainage holes. We sell the stuff in (expensive) 50 Lb bags. If that's all you can find up your way then check out a good pharmacy. Medical grade activated charcoal won't come any cheaper. But it may be packaged & stocked in reasonable quantities nearer your home.
If you get desperate let me know. We have a few upstate NY stores that may have it in stock.
Give me a few minutes to find the correct rate around here.

Steve

5/7/2003 8:32:42 PM

Western NY

not really sure if its true, but i had heard that captan is extremely acidic when added to water. maybe someone else knows more about this, but it might explain things.

Andy

5/7/2003 8:54:28 PM

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Pal, Found this about the Grow-Safe:

Inactivating Pesticide Spills:
If a pesticide is spilled accidently, if the wrong pesticide is applied, or if a pesticide is applied at an excessive rate, the best solution is to apply a material that will adsorb or inactivate the pesticide. Once the pesticide has been adsorbed, it is biologically inactive and cannot cause environmental contamination by running off in surface waters or leaching into groundwater. Activated charcoal (activated carbon) is the universal adsorbing material for most pesticides. Powdered activated charcoal is made up of very small carbon particles that have a high affinity for organic chemicals such as pesticides. Activated charcoal has a large surface area to which organic molecules can bind. When it is applied to pesticide-contaminated soil, the pesticide molecules are attracted to the charcoal particles and bind to them when they come into contact.
continued

5/7/2003 9:40:07 PM

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The amount of activated charcoal to apply to a pesticide-contaminated area varies with the chemical characteristics of the particular pesticide. The rate ranges from about 100 to 400 pounds of activated charcoal per acre (2.3 to 9.2 pounds per thousand square feet) for each pound of active ingredient of a pesticide apl3lied per acre. A general rule is to apply about 200 pounds of activated charcoal per acre (4.6 pounds per thousand square feet) for each pound of pesticide active ingredient per acre. For example, if trifluralin (Treflan 4EC) was inadvertently applied to an area at a rate of 1 quart per acre, there would be 1 pound of active ingredient of trifluralin per acre (Treflan contains 4 pounds of active ingredient per gallon and 1 quart is 1/4 gallon, so each quart contains 1 pound). To completely inactivate this area you would need to broadcast apply 200 pounds of activated charcoal (see Table 1 for conversion to square feet). Your county Extension agent can assist you in determining a rate of activated charcoal to apply to a given area.
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Tou need to use one half the amount of Charcoal as you did the Captan since it was a 50% Active Ingredient material. Mix this quantity in enough water to insure that most of it stays in the pots. Add a small quantity of surfactant to keep the charcoal is solution & moving through the soil medium.

Hope this helps!

Steve

5/7/2003 9:42:46 PM

syracuse, ny

Thank you, Tremor! although i went about my own method of
remediation of the problem before i read the above fantastic
information, we all will now know what to do if the situation ever arises again. even if i had found some Grow-Safe, that would have been another day or two of not being able to do anything, and i just went about flushing-out the plants as soon as i could. the above information has,
and will, prove very useful to anyone that may have a similar problem in the future! so your time has not been
wasted by any means.
i put the plants 4 at a time in the kitchen sink, filled it with tepid water, to the point of almost submerging the 4"
peat pots, lifted them, let them drain, and again and again.
then i put them in a rack of sorts, and about 5 times each i watered them to complete saturation and let them drain,
again about 4 or 5 times each---once the soapy-looking bubbles stopped showing on the surface of the starter mix, i figured that was enough! i have them under fluorescents, as in the beginning, and a gentle fan blowing on them to help unsaturate them...so we'll see how it goes, and if i don't see any improvement by 6 PM Saturday, i will replant 6 of the 8, which will be 1230 Daletas, 960 Rose, 845 Bobier, 767 Catapano, 728.5 Gerry, and 1140 Stelts...
the dream lineup! HARD LESSON LEARNED!!! Thank you. 'pal

5/8/2003 1:54:31 PM