From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Picton,ON ([email protected])

Having grown pumpkins for a few years now, I thought I had a good handle on how to correctly measure a giant. I discovered this fall, to my dismay, that there is a lot of confusion on the proper way to take a circumference measurement. The proper method is: to take “the largest measurement parallel to the ground”. This may not necessarily be over the blossom and or stem of the pumpkin as I have taken them in the past. I discovered this while at the Cornerstone weigh off at Barrie this fall in a discussion with Frank Catapano.

The pumpkin in question at the time was our 775 Vincent- McGill 07, grown off the 1446 Werner. Originally I measured the circumference this pumpkin across the blossom/ stem area, giving me circumference of 139” along with SS of 94.5” and EE of 88” for a total ott of 321.5” and an estimated weight of 700.2 lbs. The pumpkin officially weighed 775 making it 10.6% heavy. The pumpkin had an odd shape and was squatty. Frank showed me the errors of my ways and we re-measured the pumpkin at 150” circumference about 6” lower on the pumpkin. This changed the total ott to 332.5” or an estimated weight of 773.1, meaning the pumpkin basically weighed on chart…hmmmm

I ran into a pumpkin similar in shape at a weigh off later in the fall. The grower was very seasoned and respected. Some would consider him a heavy hitter. His pumpkin ended up going like +20% to his measurement, which was done across the blossom/ stem of the pumpkin. I know had he lowered the tape, about 6” to the largest circumference it would have dramatically increased the estimated weigh of the pumpkin and reduced the % over the chart.

Continued......

12/4/2007 12:49:23 PM

Picton,ON ([email protected])

My point here is not to point fingers, just to bring to everyone’s attention, the potential inconsistencies in the way we estimate our pumpkins and that it is not an exact science. I know I will certainly take the % heavy numbers under more scrutiny now!

I almost wonder if we should be looking at the GPC sanctioned weigh offs to be required to take official measurements prior to putting the pumpkin on the scale.

I know, I know be careful what you wish for!

12/4/2007 12:49:50 PM

ExtremeVegetables.com

Great point.
At the OVGPG weigh off they did measure the pumpkins officially prior to weighing them. I was a little dissapointed they stopped at a certian weight. My 608 went light and was recorded but the 464 went heavy and wasn't taped prior. I understand that it takes a lot of time to do this. I'd be happy to volunteer to help next year.

I think recording these stats are crucial to the future of Giant Pumpkin growing if we are going to use them in any way.

12/4/2007 1:20:17 PM

Boulder County Colorado USA planet Earth

Having helped tape at a weigh off, it takes about 3 minutes per pumpkin,(atleast thats what it took us) Bring it up to your local weigh off and maybe you can have extra judges next yr.

12/4/2007 2:17:26 PM

Ohio

As far as I know, all the gpc weigh off sites are all taped prior to being weighed?, at least the two I weighed in was by measured from a member from the GPC

12/4/2007 4:31:24 PM

Rhode Island

greenhousin

fortunately its not always true that growers of smaller pumpkins are left to feel like you were.

as club and site directors we must all remember that the 400 pound pumpkin in many cases required the grower to work just as hard as the person who won. and it hurts a bit when you feel short changed.

unfortunately its a given that a lot of growers themselves are not that interested in measurements for on or over the chart weights with regard to smaller pumpkins.

site officials realize this, therefore in a lot of cases do not measure ( or even inspect that well ) small fruit.
thats just the frank truth of the matter. its been happening for as long as i have been attending giant pumpkin weigh offs.
i have even seen small pumpkins with duck tape weighed as official.

it all depends on the sites. some are excellent and professional in there approach to all members, going out of there way to make new growers feel welcome, others not so great.

welcome to the world of giant pumpkin weigh offs

best advise i can give you was passed on to me many years ago by a world record grower. "GROW A BIGGER PUMPKIN"
then they must respect you.

Pap

12/4/2007 5:43:57 PM

Wi

I don't really see a consensus anywhere on how to measure circumference. All of the seasoned guys I know do NOT adhere to the "parallel to the ground" theory. They look for the largest circumference reasonably parallel to the ground. I know at the 2 GPC events I attended the pumpkins were taped with circumference being the greatest measurement while staying "close to parallel."

12/4/2007 5:55:13 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Hey pap, did the duct tape pumpkin go more than 150% heavy ?

12/4/2007 7:12:06 PM

Picton,ON ([email protected])

Interesting comments so far. I atteneded 4 GPC sites this year and three last year including Port Elgin and have never seen a pumpkin taped at the weigh off.

In discussions with many other growers, very few were using the largest circumferance approach.

12/4/2007 7:32:47 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

Interesting observations John. It seems to be an issue of education, of the correct measuring methods. Many growers frequent this site, hopefully this post will help clear up some of the confusion.

12/4/2007 8:31:04 PM

Leicester, NY

John,
You’re correct, you measure in the area of greatest circumference and parallel with the ground. On a squashed down fruit, often that can be very close to the ground and several inches below the stem/blossom area. Several years ago, Len Stellpflug, who created the charts, went over this with me in my patch. With most of my pumpkins, the biggest measurement is in the stem area, but every year, it seems like I have at least one fruit where I’m getting way down low to get that measurement.

12/4/2007 8:49:39 PM

Western NY

I think an overemphasis on the need to be heavy to the chart leads some growers to take smaller measurements.

12/4/2007 8:54:44 PM

[email protected]

I wonder if these sites where folks haven't seen anything getting taped didn't encourage early drop off. Or perhaps some growers showed up late?

We tape every pumpkin & they get taped before the weigh-off starts. That said, if a grower shows up late (at our weigh off) & the weighing has already started, the tape crew is then on the scale. At this point we might skip taping the exhibition entries (which a smaller fruit would be) to save time. Entrants who check in on time all get measured. Late comers though need to understand that their actions might have unwanted side effects on the on-time entries so the site might need to alter their practices in fairness to those who were on time.

I'm not trying to make excuses for a lazy or understaffed site but all GPC sites are required to collect this data & all of the sites I've ever been to do just that.

12/4/2007 11:55:33 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Steve, at the current time it is not a requirement of a GPC site to record OTT Data. We did publish this information in the DVD that was sent to all sites and provide fields in the spreadsheet to submit the data.

The integrity of the measurements and the continuity of the collection of it is something we need to do a better job of. As the author of the soon to be released 2008 OTT benchmark study whose data depends on accurate information it is a big concern of mine as we move forward.

The rules and requirements need tweaking in several areas and this may be one of them. For reasons that may seam unimportant to my colleges in Ontario this is a challenge we need to correct in future years. The educational component of this is something I can focus on when the new study is released in order to better educate the coommomwealth members.

12/5/2007 9:59:31 PM

Picton,ON ([email protected])

Well said Russ. I believe that it is a fantastic idea to make measurements a requirement of a GPC site; however I realize it will require more manpower.

Steve, I think a good point here is that as far as you knew, it was regular and common practice for all fruit to be "officially measured" at the GPC sites. As you know now, this is not the case. Certainly now that you know this, it must cast some doubt as to the integrity of the data!

I have also heard growers say that a pumpkin will often tape differently, once removed from the patch (often more). I know I place my pumpkins on 6" high density foam rubber. This makes it almost impossible to get an accurate measurement. The only consistent method would be to measure them on the flat surface of the scale.

12/6/2007 8:01:26 AM

Ohio

I think by the most part, most of the data people give are a honest measurements rather then trying to measure it small to try to make a pumpkin go heavy to the charts. I think there is a lot of confusion still on measuring a pumpkin. John's Idea is a great idea measuring the pumpkin on the scale, it would probably take less then 20 seconds a pumpkin and barley hold a weigh off up on time when there is a lot of pumpkins that needs to be weighed. That's a great idea John I like it!

12/6/2007 9:46:46 AM

Ontario, Canada.

I would like to propose a growers sub-committee group be formed in Ontario, whose sole responsibility would be to collect measurement OTT data at weigh-off sites. It is really up to us in the GVGO and GPC to form a commitment to record accurate OTT dimensions of our progeny.

12/6/2007 11:22:15 AM

Dummer Twp - Ontario

Great thread folks, I for one had two pumpkins go quite heavy at weighoffs this year and wondered if I had measured them correctly. I did have people check them to ensure i was correct as I'm still quite new at this. At both weigh-offs plenty of time was available to measure OTT values. As usual it now adds more work for the people who volunteer time at these sites but it will help to ensure that pumpkins are truly heavy to the chart.

Kirk

12/6/2007 11:45:27 AM

Picton,ON ([email protected])

Russ....I like your idea...the subcommitee would ensure that the measurements are taken on every pumpkin and in accordance with accepted methods. I'm sure it could easily be done at least at the Ontario Weigh offs, to ask for a couple volinteers from the GVGO member participants to help to collect the data, Perhaps this practice should be encouraged in other regions as well....I think the directive should come from the GPC, as a recomendation at least to start this practice

12/6/2007 12:23:12 PM

Colorado

At the RMGVG weigh-off we had one crew recording OTT values
and a second crew moving pumpkins that had already been measured to the scales for offical weights. We had a good
flow going and completed the weigh-off ahead of schedule.
Getting the growers to volunteer their time is key
to keeping things rolling. Placing marks on your pumpkins helps you measure on the same spot every time giving you consistent data every time you measure...LB

12/6/2007 12:31:26 PM

[email protected]

John,

It's true...I had no idea that some sites were not measuring. We're a new site (4 years) & have been following the GPC guidance from the start so there we never an question. It is a lot of work. We have 2 club members taping for at least an hour to capture all of the measurements (no we don't tape the field pumpkins).

We would require that the foam be removed but that's easy to do with a forklift & ring. If the foam interferes with taping then it might also interfere with the inspection process. If the grower objected I would presume he was hiding something (soft bottom).

12/6/2007 7:34:58 PM

Team Munson

Joe and John are right on how to measure the way Len S. intended them to be taken on traditional shaped fruit. The bottom line is we are measuring mass to find estimated weight, I feel you should try to get the measurements that best represent the mass of the fruit. The commonly accepted way to measure is perfect for traditional shaped fruit, it's the unusually shaped fruit that knocks the traditional measurements out of whack. What I am saying is sometimes you have to use your common sense to obtain better measurements, example if a fruit is has a much larger bottom (like a candied apple on wax paper) then move up to the circumference that best represents the fruit. There will never be a way to accurately measure oddly shaped fruit but if we try to get the measurements that best represent the fruit then we will have better numbers to estimate by.
Excellent thread!!!!!
Dave

The GPC issued a DVD to all sites that explains how to take OTT measurements and the requirements for gathering and inputting data on weigh-off day. If anyone would like to view this DVD contact your site coordinator so they can let you see it.

12/7/2007 9:34:58 AM

southwest MO

Raggu's 1,521.5 was a hard one to tape. He knew all season to control his optimism based on that fact. Or lets say he estimated closer to the scale that the tape did.

12/7/2007 11:54:04 AM

Team Munson

Genius,
I helped Steve measure that pumpkin a couple of times and you are right, that is a perfect example of what I am referring to. We came up 7-8"s less when we moved the tape up for the circumference measurement. The OTT by the biggest circumference was 431 total and what I call the actual was 424-423 total this is why I would say use your best measurement to show actual mass.

12/7/2007 1:11:14 PM