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Carrollton, Ga.

Just wanted to ask a few questions. What is the main benifit of manure. Is it to increase the organic matter or to add nutrients?
If the main benifit of the manure is to add orangic matter, could I do it by just adding leaves and planting cover crop. My patch is just 1 year old and it does not have many weeds or much grass in it.
Take care,
doug
John 3:16

11/21/2007 6:48:14 AM

Georgia

Doug I believe it contains both. Manure adds organic matter because of what the cattle or horses eat and also puts nutrients back into the soil. I dont use a cover crop just hay, manuer and a little bit of leaves. This year im also adding in the fall as a kind off a cover crop is Mushroom compost 2 two three inches thick. Im spreading that this fall letting it age until the spring and then adding more aged horse manuer. I spread hay all over the place then ammend in the spring with worm castings also. The place im growing used to be a hay field that has been cut for a while. So my soil has a lot of organics in it. Also cows use to graze there. But I believe it adds both.

11/21/2007 9:45:15 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

doug, and jason...soil test, soil test, soil test!!! Peace, Wayne

11/21/2007 4:56:39 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Depending on its age, manure might not have many nutrients.
Heres a link to side by side tomato plants. Some in potting mix the others in aged manure.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=63059

11/21/2007 5:03:43 PM

Carrollton, Ga.

I have a soil test in now wayne.

Doug

John 3:16

11/21/2007 6:27:10 PM

[email protected]

Organic matter & structure first. Fall manure does contribute some N (spring more) but there are many easier ways to deliver N. However the increase in soil structure & biology is the main contribution of manure. Leaves are probably second best being less biologically active but it would be interesting to see if the biological activity doesn't finish close in the end.

11/21/2007 6:55:11 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Let's look at this a little more closely.

"If the main benifit of the manure is to add orangic matter, could I do it by just adding leaves and planting cover crop"

The answer to this question may seem to be a simple yes. But that's not quite right. In fact, adding uncomposted leaves to the soil will rob the soil of available N as the microbes attempt to feed on the C content of the leaves. As this feeding occurs, N continues to decrease. The catch is, adding more N will further the problem because the more N added the faster the process will happen. As the microbes have more N for fuel, the faster they can break down the C in the leaves. What happens when microbes break down carbon in leaves?

Let's see how many people can answer that question.

11/21/2007 11:26:48 PM

Ontario, Canada.

The answer to Monty's question is actually a complex process called mineralisation.

Mineralisation is the biological process where organic compounds in organic matter are chemically converted by the microorganisms in soil to simpler organic compounds, other organic compounds or mineralised nutrients. The carbon is converted to carbon dioxide, the nitrogen to ammonium.

11/22/2007 6:59:35 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Incorporating organic matter that has a high C:N ratio will probably cause some nitrogen deficiency in the patch, at least in the short-term. This the main reason why it is always best to add well composted and aged organic materials they are far less disruptive to the rhizosphere and bring with; far greater numbers of mineralized nutrients. A problem that some growers of today are faced with is a sudden flush of nutrients as the soil warms in the month of July and early August. Often this sudden flush from Dieing microorganisms overloads the patches balance with a sudden release of ammonium. What happen Next?

11/22/2007 7:10:29 AM

Ohio

salts?

11/22/2007 12:25:14 PM

Ohio

I ment, where do the salts come from?

11/22/2007 12:27:30 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Also with a cover crop...if you till it in it is called a Green Manure..Breaks down quickly and leaves very little organic matter behind. Cut it let it dry on the surface a few days..Then till it in.

11/22/2007 12:30:48 PM

Colorado

it should be mentioned in the soil cycle(to anser monteys question).that the nitrogen sink from composting leaves is because bacteria and fungi colonies are reproducing and incorporating nitrogen into their cells. That nitrogen (and all other nutrients)is later available when those organisms die and are cycled through further soil biological activity-hence long term organic fertillity(bank account)

11/22/2007 5:16:47 PM

[email protected]

Hee's an article folks might find interesting. It covers Nitrogen from the Atmospheric Nitrogen Fixation (N2 > NH4+) to Nitrogen uptake (NH4+ > Organic N) to N Mineralization (Organic N > NH4+) to Nitrification (NH4+ > NO3-) to denitrification (NO3- > N2+ N2O).

Carbon weather cycling is another cool subject that is often cited seperately but is a valid part of the N process.

Bottom line: Manure + leaves (brown & green) in the fall is good. Add or encourage bacterial activity & you're cooking.

All animal manures contain salts.

11/22/2007 10:44:31 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Spot on Russ! I figured either you or Steve would respond. To take it step further, as CO2 is produced, the carbon conten of the soil is reduced. Since OM is 58% C, an acutal reduction in OM could be observed.

Cojoe, you should study nitrification and de-nitrification. What you stated does not answer the question at all. You are also assuming that N as well as all other macro and micro-nutrients are incorporated completely within the bacteria and fungal cells. That is incorrect. Dead bacteria and fungi are not a soil "bank account".

11/23/2007 4:21:17 PM

Follansbee, Wv

To answers Russ's question about what happens next:

The ammonium could very well occupy CEC sites in place of Ca, causing a Ca lock up (a lower pH soil would be more likely for this). This could lead to splitting and any number of other problems. If the ammonium is in the form of a nitrate, which it probably would be, there would be an explosion of green growth and draw even more nutrients away from the fruit.

11/23/2007 4:29:21 PM

Colorado

i should have stated "some of nitrogen".some nitrogen lost as ammonia gas.somes mineralized into nitrate. monty what your problem?

11/23/2007 6:43:08 PM

Follansbee, Wv

What's my problem?

"it should be mentioned in the soil cycle(to anser monteys question).that the nitrogen sink from composting leaves is because bacteria and fungi colonies are reproducing and incorporating nitrogen into their cells."

That's wrong. You didn't even begin to answer the question.

"That nitrogen (and all other nutrients)is later available when those organisms die and are cycled through further soil biological activity-hence long term organic fertillity(bank account)"

That's also wrong. In fact, the availability of any nutrients due to the death of bacteria or fungi is quite small.

What's my problem? My problem is self proclaimed soil experts spouting everything off the cuff. People read these posts in the hope of learning something. When you pour out mis-information, it only hurts those trying to learn.

This was turning into a very good discussion about how nitrogen and carbon behave in the soil in the presence of certain biological interactions. Then, you had to chime in.

What's my problem? My problem is people like you.

I have refrained from posting on this site because of people like you.

I have lately tried to get involved in some of the soil discussions, so all can learn, including myself. But, yet again, I find myself not a part of the conversation, but a "problem".

So, cojoe, spout all you want. You have only re-enforced my resolve to refrain from posting here again.

11/23/2007 8:14:06 PM

Long Island,New York

Monty...I think you should refrain from posting for a good while longer. Responses like yours are totally uncalled for and destructive. Go away and don't come back until you can act civil. 1 vote-monty.

11/23/2007 9:07:18 PM

Ohio

Monty, you did ask how many people you could see that COULD answer the question, and that's what he tried to do, even though it might of been wrong I don't think he was trying to give out misinformation but yet trying to see if he knew the answer.

11/24/2007 4:51:02 AM

Ohio

Cojoe, dont worry about that, you did nothing wrong ol bud.

11/24/2007 4:59:57 AM

Montoursville, PA

This is why I quit posting here two years ago. At the same time I gave up on the Bible. It says in there somewhere Noah put two of each on or in the ark. Question: How could so many simple asses come from just two?

Maybe the governor of West Va. could answer that one. :)

11/24/2007 12:40:22 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

ok, the discussion was getting very good until the hissy fit. I was benefitting from the responses because I have two patches, one full of manure and OM and everything else you would expect. The other patch has everything but manure. In place I piled on over 80 bags of maple leaves, over 1 foot deep. Please continue the discussion so that I can see what I must do before planting.
PS- Monty, we've never met, but you seem very knowledgeable on this subject. I would like to hear your comments. If you must correct someone just do it in a courteous manner. I don't think you would get as much fallout. Just my opinion.

11/24/2007 1:03:35 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

For a while there it almost sounded like the TV show "House" ..........I too enjoyed learning from this thread.....Let us not chase anyone away, opinions are like compost, good food for thought...We can never have enough good compost..... :)

11/26/2007 8:48:07 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

SO did Andy apply too much leaf matter? I have done exactly this many times too not knowing If I applied too much then I tilled it in, my soil test did show a need for N. I sprayed mine with fish, seaweed and molasses, to help out. makes sense that it will dont it?.......

11/26/2007 8:52:33 AM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

So in general, is 4-6 months enough time for freshly fallen leaves to break down into a state where they wont rob the plants of other nutrients during the breakdown process?

Monty....the catch is, adding more N will further the problem because the more N added the faster the process will happen....but would adding N help to ensure that by that time spring rolls around, the significant portion of decomp of the leaves is complete?

The Wiz added fish/seaweed/molasses. I was considering this, but wasn't sure exactly how much bacterial activity occurs when the soil is frozen. Was it worth if for the Wiz? Did I miss out? I definitely will spray this in the spring.

11/26/2007 9:33:53 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

We have a constant freeze, thaw, freeze, thaw. Last year we had so much snow, ( 48" base ) and it stayed covered for 50+ days. My swiss chard stayed alive under the snow cover and did not freeze. I believe with moisture being the key, the biology may have slowed down but it was still going and growing....even in the cold. I plan on keeping my patches moist this year.

11/26/2007 10:29:59 AM

Littleton, Colo

LIpumpkin......I like you !!

11/27/2007 10:20:24 PM