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Little-TON - Colorado

Very low seed counts.....

Are these the result of poor viable pollination? Techniques? Can one do a great job pollinating and have empty seeds?

My 500 Wallace had only 6-10 decent seeds, the rest were all hallow, soft. Even the few that made it dont have a full brown shell to the tip. Any info on why this may be?

11/13/2007 9:21:48 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I've been meaning to start a thread about this. It's one of those things where we might need stand back and think about a lot of information before coming to conclusions. Here are just a few examples:

If you're covering flowers before pollination, how do you cover? If it is something like a plastic bag, are you raising the temperature and humidity and hampering the "respiration" of that flower during it's most critical stage?

Likewise, after pollination, how do you cover or protect the new fruit? It seems to me that a little netting that allows good air flow would be best (or most natural).

What time of day? Too early or too late is too bad.

How many males? I think we overkill here, perhaps... then why do they still have low counts? Ever watch a bee that is already in a flower, going about his business? They aren't just gently walking around in there. They're poking, proding, injecting, really getting rough with the flower. Maybe a paintbrush with really firm bristles would help?

Well, just a few thoughts to get this one started. I'm sure there will be plenty more!

11/13/2007 10:41:58 AM

Danville, CA ([email protected])

If the plant pollinates, I believe it should produce seeds. My concern lies with 1) when the fruit is picked and 2) when does a giant that large mature and are these connected? I read over and over "When the pumpkin was picked, it was still putting on X pounds a day..." If it is still putting on such weight, perhaps the energy of the pumpkin is still focussed on its own size and not yet on seed production/maturity. Would be interesting for me to see whether those pumpkins with low seed counts were also those putting on considerable weight at the time of harvest and/or to determine how many "low counts" were in pumpkins that had completely stopped growing prior to harvest. Lastly, perhaps we are inadvertantly creating a low count variety through the genetics we are continually inbreeding. I don't think it is a pollination issue, but then what do I know.

11/13/2007 11:08:21 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Hmm... I would tend to discount that argument. That is, a thirty day old fruit can have hundreds of mature seeds. Also, if you pick a female flower even before it is pollinated and slice it open, you will see all the seeds there. You can even count them. (Hmmm..... that's not a bad idea!)

The female flower provides the seeds. Whatever mature seeds you get is based on how many of those are successfully pollinated and grow to maturity. I would guess that within hours or days after pollination the number of seeds is set and it's just a matter of the fruit getting adequate nourishment to ensure that the seeds develop.

We all have many females that we remove before pollination. Why not slice them open to get an idea of the relative seed count, or if this plant might have problems?

11/13/2007 11:51:42 AM

Greencastle, PA

Does the low seed count phenomenon seem to occur more often in pumpkins that sustain growth for abnormally long periods than in pumpkins that don't?

11/13/2007 12:48:11 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

More food for thought....If a female gets no viable pollen, no chance of seeds, will that pumpkin abort? Or just be seedless with a false pollination.

11/13/2007 1:00:06 PM

Marion,IN

Wiz, here's my info on pollinating. I grew six plants ranging from 172 est. up tp 544 est. All pollinations took place between 7 and 7:30 am, each female received 4-5 males each and each plant was closed up with a twist tie. The seed counts ranged from the 230's up to 480's. Seed count was not in correlation with pumpkin size. More info to think about Wiz..

Mark G.

11/13/2007 1:32:57 PM

Western NY

Tom - in my experience, yes. that's the first time i've thought of that.

11/13/2007 2:02:56 PM

Colorado

Is there a trend or pattern of low seed counts in plants
that share certain genetics? It would be interesting to
hear from other growers who also grew the 500 Wallace
this year to know their seed counts...LB

11/13/2007 2:22:04 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Im thinking not so much techniques at this point is to postulating on "Why" ....Is the only reason for no seeds or low seeds is Technique.......How bout it there hortilculturists.......?

I put my flowers in the fridge the night before, Im thinking on not doing this anymore as I have a concern about wet pollen and its clumping.....

11/13/2007 2:33:35 PM

Ohio

I have always pollinated my flowers the same way for about the past 3 years, since I leave for work before the sun rises, at approx 445 am and still dark outside, I will pry open the female flower that is going to open in approx 2 hours, I use pollen from the males I collected the night before. I also pry these males open about 2 hrs before they open and I dump the pollen in a small pill bottle to dump in the female that morning.(easier to get pollen inside the female for me). I then tie the female shut tight.
I have had good seeds counts this way and I have had bad seed counts this way, only thing I think might make the difference in the seed counts is temperature possibly?, Truthfully I really cant figure it out and have often wondered about this.

11/13/2007 2:55:34 PM

Colorado

hey wiz,that sounds like grower error.lol.I grew a second generation 500 wallace(723 treadway=500 wallace X 1407 wolf)this year. Both pumpkins had no mature seeds.First time Ive seen that in 11 years.I'm betting genetics.Barrys 910 out of the 1105 glasier(A pumpkin with about 15 mature seeds) had about 700 seeds in it-so you never know.

11/13/2007 5:59:11 PM

Cincinnati,OH

I pollinated 2 different pumpkins on 2 different plants on the same day using the same techniqe. One pumpkin had 365 seeds the other 120. I also had a 333lber off of the 1105 Glasier with no seeds.

11/13/2007 6:57:09 PM

Ohio

Jack LaRue grew the 1180 Daletas 3 or 4 times and had really low seed counts. The last time he grew the 1180 it was seedless.

11/13/2007 7:48:43 PM

Marion,IN

Here is a genetic guess..I believe that a particular pumpkin that has none or very few seeds is at or coming close to its genetic potential to reproduce. An example in the animal kingdom is the crossbreeding of a horse and a donkey. A mule...its big,strong,powerful and has incredible working endurance, but it cannot reproduce. This particular animal is also at its genetic potential. That is my best guess as to why.

Mark G.

11/13/2007 8:42:34 PM

ordinary,VA

Brooks--Mark Fowler grew the 1180 Daletas this year with plenty of seeds????

11/13/2007 9:12:35 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

So, Tom and Andy, are we saying that if a fruit has little or no seeds, it can just continue to grow and grow (not focusing on the little ones, you know...) For example, did the 1407 follow this pattern?

11/14/2007 12:01:40 AM

Littleton, Colo

Thinking the problem iz "The WiZ" just can't count past 10......complication due to the surgery..lol

11/14/2007 12:21:14 AM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

I think the fruit continuing to grow has to do with hormones the plant produces. If the seeds never mature this hormone is not present and the pumpkin continues growth. Could also have to do with all the kelp we spray.

11/14/2007 7:23:10 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

That is a really cool theory!

11/14/2007 10:49:55 PM

[email protected]

Interesting subject that we revisit every couple years.

Agree with Shannon. Some plants are programmed to drop seedless (parthenocarpy or stenospermocarpy) fruit soon after setting. Others don't seem to know any better & just keep growing. Seedlessness can be accidental or imposed. I've wanted to try using abscisic acid on female flowers to try to artificially induce this condition for years but have never bothered to execute the plan.

I once asked Mike at AGGC if he could spool a report on low &/or zero seed count fruit so we can make comparisons. It would be very interesting to query a report of same parents for seed count versus weight/size outcome data. However seed count isn't data he collects so the report cannot be built.

Here's some rudimentary info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenocarpy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenospermocarpy

11/14/2007 11:00:26 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Heres a few more cool pages of reading. This is a great thread.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyploid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibberellin (Growth Hormones)

Ill have to read these several times, then splain it to TheBiz, with pictures........lol

11/15/2007 8:47:42 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Has anyone used Gibberellic Acid for stimulating growth? Check it out.....

http://www.megagro.com/gibberellic-acid.htm?source=gibberellicacid&gclid=CMXv0MD_3o8CFRsIWAodqm5y7w

11/15/2007 8:54:09 AM

Western NY

The 1407 itself continued to have measurable growth until about the week before picking. It may have been able to put a couple more pounds on if I let it keep growing, I'm not sure. I wasn't keeping a close eye on the growth that last week.

My wife grew a 792 wolf (selfed 1407) this year. It was completely sterile - no seeds in any of the pumpkins on it, and all males were underdeveloped with no pollen to use. It only made it to mid-400's because of a split on the bottom.

11/15/2007 12:32:39 PM