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Colo Springs CO

Everyone I've talked to have their own idea why the weights keep climbing. Everyone knows that weather, growing techniques, and soil all are factors in growing them big. Of course, genetics are perhaps the biggest factor of all. This time of year everyone wants to find the next "hot seed" from 2007. Other than getting lucky and having a great seed sent to you, what is everyone looking for in the genetic makeup of a seed?

The 935 and the 898 obviously were great genetics to cross into modern genetics. There was in line/ selective breeding to thank as well. Was there any real "hybrid vigor" to begin with? If "new blood" is needed to create the next "hybrid vigor" genetic, where exactly are growers looking?

This is a dividing subject among many long time growers. I've grown for 17 years...sometimes predicted which genetics would become hot...and also seen many genetics exceed my expectations. There is one thing for sure, nothing is for sure! Enough time has went by though, for growers to make a good guess as why certain seeds become hot.

I'm curious to hear what others think. Before everyone sends seed requests out, it would be nice to hear everyones opinion on this subject. I myself truely believe I have one of the next "hot crosses" in my 604 Sawtelle 07... but then again, don't we all think we have the next "hot seed"? LOL !

11/4/2007 8:23:17 PM

Boulder County Colorado USA planet Earth

My 399 ccw 1502W by 125 wolf

But I need to get my hands on a lot of great seeds this yr.

11/4/2007 9:25:13 PM

Colorado

hey mark, I think a lot of this years bigger pumpkins was the growers(techniques). as far as hybred vigor or line bred? That topic is still up for debate.The seeds are so eratic is hard to get a scientific read on whats going on.sincerely seedless in wheat ridge

11/4/2007 9:58:21 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I think, say, 10 years ago there was a lot of support for the hybrid vigor argument. Crossing two dissimilar lines (not a true hybrid, but oh well) seemed to produce outstanding seeds. Seeds such as the 567.5, 723, 846, etc., all seemed to have some planning in them, in the inbreeding and outbreeding strategy. The 898 was a little different in that it simply had a certain desirable trait (thick walls) and we certainly latched on to that, very quickly. I can't list all of the notable seeds from that period.

Lately, seeds that are working seem to be those that are picked off the top of the bell curve. That is, take two 1400 pounders and cross them, (update that to say two 1600 pounders for 2008). It's a different way of thinking, but who can argue with the result?

One of these years we're all going to have bad weather and the world record will take a year off....... or not! Who knows? We're really in a golden age of this hobby. Dozens (hundreds?) of seed stocks can produce amazing results and more and more growers are attracted to this pursuit every year. Are we going to see 1700 next year? I'd bet yes. And I'd bet that it could be done on any of 20 (or more) different seeds.

11/4/2007 10:18:23 PM

Colorado

Marc- so what's the genetic make-up of the 598.0 Swartz? That's the pollinator for your 604, right?

11/5/2007 9:36:26 AM

Colo Springs CO

The 598 is the reverse cross of the 898. What the 898 added to the 845, 723, 846 genetic lines was equally impressive as what the 935 Llyod did to create those genetics. Thats why I wonder what everyones thoughts were on the subject now days. Good insight Joe and Cliff. Those are the comments I'm looking to hear. Any other growers want to chime in on the subject?

11/5/2007 10:32:10 AM

Colorado

The 598 schwartz is a real sleeper mark. You had a possible world record going for high altitude(above 5800 ft.)growing.I suspect theres a surviving clone down there in clonerado city.

11/5/2007 11:09:14 AM

Minnesota([email protected])

A agree with Cliff, crossing seeds from huge pumpkins seems to be producing nice results. We now have a number of pumpkins over 1500 lbs. to choose from(if they have seeds that is). We also have a lot of seeds that should have good "heavy to the chart" potential.

I think crossing the 1402 Bosworth with the 1041.5 McKie, or 1502 Wallace would be something to think about.

If there is hybrid vigor in A.G.'s, a cross that might do well would be a 1068 Wallace crossed with a 801.5 Stelts, or being they're both likely scarce, (1068 Wallace X self) X (801.5 Stelts X self).

11/5/2007 1:28:29 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I like a good discussion like this... only, hoping to get 50 or 60 responses. It must not be winter yet!

We get a lot more interest in "Happy Birthday so and so.....". Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but...

11/5/2007 10:00:04 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Hybrid vigor?
1450 Wallace x 737 Fawcett
Hmm...

11/5/2007 11:16:49 PM

Colo Springs CO

Exactly Cliff... lol ... Maybe nobody wants to take sides on this issue. I know this has been brought up in past years, but more time had went by, and more data is out there. The debate is in remission I suppose....

Yes Joe...how could I pass up cloning a plant like that...LOL! I'm growing it again to experiment and see if I do a few different things, if I am to blame for the blossom split and dill rings...

11/6/2007 1:05:10 PM

Salem, OR

Inbreeding Theory: many great seeds are crossbacks--daughterXmother, etc. I first got excited about this theory back in 1998 when the Mombert 940 was grown from the 866 Mombert (567.5 offspring) and pollinated by the 567.5. In theory, I really like this approach--you'd think that the strong genes would be magnified. The 664 Liggett and 763 Biss are these kinds of crossbacks and have done great (don't crucify me if I get some numbers wrong--this is off the top of my head)
Two years ago I followed this line of thinking in my seed choice and crosses--I grew the 1038 Emmons (846X723) and pollinated it with the 1033 Emmons (846Xself)--I would have pollinated it with the 846 itself but didn't have one!. I tried growing the resulting pumpkin (524 Isom), but one of the pumpkins was a mutant and the other a wheel! Maybe I should have stuck with the "Inbreeding Theory" longer, but now I'm a believer in a sort of "Hybrid Vigor" theory.

Hybrid Vigor Theory: Cross distinctly different genetic lines in the hope that the new genes introduced into the pumpkin line will --what? this is where the theory is a bit vague in my mind--that the new traits will manifest themselves AND the strong traits of the other line will also manifst themselves (instead of becoming a mushy, weak, inbred line). I guess it goes something like that.
Following this line of thinking, the 1180 Daletas is a very strong pumpkin (genetically speaking), because the 898 thick-walled trait is combined with the orange, huge trait of the 846. When I pollinated my 1191 Zunino (670 Daigle offspring), I crossed it with the 955 Brinkley, because that pumpkin is an 1180X1370, and I hoped that the heavy (but orange!) traits of the 1180 Daletas would be brought into the orange and huge 1191. The 1370 Rose also seems to be a great seed because it combines the classic genetics of the 846 and 723 (which are in about every great pumpkin grown in the last three years)with the different genes of

11/6/2007 1:18:51 PM

Salem, OR

" . . . with the different genes of . . . the 712 Kuhn" is what my last post was supposed to say.

11/6/2007 1:44:39 PM

I'm certainly not versed in these "theroy" things but I made a cross this year (and will grow it next) that should come under these guises somewhere. 1002 Bowles '07, 460 Clark X 1407.3 Wolf which will present 1180X845 X 723X1180 a first time seed which may be of interest. (or could flop!!)

We can play Mendel all we want, but in reality crossing the 2 biggest fruit we can find IS how these things got started if I have my history straight,,,,,,,,

saying Happy BD is sooooo much easier,,this makes my head hurt ;-)

11/6/2007 3:04:43 PM

ordinary,VA

Lol @ Dan

11/6/2007 4:13:37 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Speaking of the 1191 Zunino, both myself and Vince went way light with it. Awesome color, but light to the charts. That was a real disappointment to me, because just a few years ago it was looking like a true-orange bonanza with the 1233 Reiss and some other seeds. But this latest generation of 1500+ fruits seems to have left the true-deep orange behind.

I guess the 998.6 throws some reddish orange.

But anyway, I did a similar thing with my 1191. But 1086 Holland in it, which has the 1354... that fruit turned out bright yellow and very thick. So, I'll have to plant my 720 in the outside chance that I can "prove" it.

11/6/2007 4:56:27 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

Cliff,
I hear you. I've been trying to think of what I crosses I can make that will possibly result in seeds that will produce large/heavy progeny, with great orange color. It's difficult to decide. Are all the pumpkins over 1400 lbs. going to be lighter in color? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm still not ready to give up orange genetics.

11/6/2007 6:25:46 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

In my book, our best chance to acquire some true, Hybrid Vigor, is not just with seeds whose fruit display differing phenotypes but truly 2 differing "genetic lines". Obviously this will be a difficult task while staying within the AG variety(going outside the AG line is a whole new topic, and I don't know any of us willing to take the years needed to see that through).
There are a few growers out there with seeds which have many many generations before like genes and some seeds whose genetics "may" actually be devoid of Dill's influence(Gancarz, Laemmle, etc.) I guess time will tell whether their closet crosses see the light of day much less show any Hybrid Vigor(keeping in mind that any Hybrid Vigor that may be detectable, may show up as negative characteristics too). Until then I will be sampling my 1068 x sib crossed with the 827 Holland x self. At the very least, it is a rare and interesting cross between two differing and proven genetic lines which don't have like genetics for many many generations back. BF

11/7/2007 12:32:14 AM

Cincinnati,OH

SSSpeaking of going outside of the AG line how did the 71 Rahe do for you SSSnake?

11/7/2007 6:02:21 PM

Woodinville, WA, PNW zn 7b

I used to raise racing homing pigeons and it was all about the breeding.

You start with two "strains" of plants, each showing outstanding characteristics.

You line breed (That is to a close relative. In pumkin terms, I'd say it's self pollination, or pollination to another vine out of the same seed.

You can also inbreed. This would be crossing offspring with parents. In pumpkins you'd have to keep seed of your pumpkin, and also keep a vine cutting alive. Next year you'd cross the offspring seed back to the parent vine.

Line breeding in plants is probably no problem. But inbreeding over and over again concentrates all genetic traits--good and bad.

Here's where the outcross brings hybrid vigor. If you took several years to develop two strains of very good pumpkins through successive inbreeding, then crossed these two strains to each other, the resulting seeds would be chock full of hybrid vigor. Outcrossing tends to reveal dominant healthy traits (disease resistance, size, vigorous growth) and minimizes genetic weaknesses.

The resulting seed from the outcross offspring will be genetic wild cards. This is why it's not the best practice to acquire seeds from the year's biggest pumpkin.

11/17/2007 1:17:27 PM