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No Place Special

A couple of weeks ago I had dinner with Bill Foss of Minnesota and in our discussions he mentioned that he likes to have at least “X” (I think he said 7) many side vines on each side of the plant before the fruit and isn’t so concerned about the length of the main vine. Since then, I have found myself thinking about his way of looking at things. I think the majority (myself included) of us tend to go by distance out on the main vine. We often refer to at least 10’ out as a minimum and 12’ plus as our ideal range of setting our chosen fruit. When we record data on the AGGC site, one field of data is for distance out on the vine. I wonder if this info is a little misleading. A plant of 16’ in length could easily have only a couple side vines or it could have 20 plus depending on many factors, with plant growth rate, pruning styles, and plant genetics being a couple examples. When talking about where on a plant a pumpkin was set, would it be more beneficial to say the pumpkin was set after 18 side vines or that it was set at 13’ feet out?

6/6/2007 6:10:29 PM

No Place Special

The majority of us collect our own data and we then often share it with others via the internet, chat rooms, AGGC and so on. Lets compare two different growers for a minute. Both growing the same seed stock, Mr. Canada grows in northern Canada and keeps every side vine on his plant. Mrs. Alabama grows down in southern Alabama and removes every other side vine on her plant. They both set pumpkins at 12’ out on the main vine. Mrs. Alabama’s plant obviously grows faster in her warm climate and Mr. Canada’s slower up north. The end result could be similar to 5 side vines on each side of Mrs. Alabama’s plant and 12 side vines on each side of Mr. Canada’s plant. Ok this is an extreme example but you probably get my point. What is the best way to compare Mr. Canada’s pumpkin to Mrs. Alabama’s? Looking aside from the fact that we all know Canada is much better suited for growing giant pumpkins, which plant would you rather have? If we simply report that both pumpkins were grown at 12’ out on the main vine, how accurate is the data we are really trying to compare? I for one think that knowing the 518 Alabama had only 10 side vines total is very significant when comparing it to the 625 Canada which had a total of 24 side vines feeding it.

6/6/2007 6:10:51 PM

No Place Special

Starting this season I will be keeping my usual records including the distance out the fruit was on the vine but in addition I’m going to start recording how many side vines the plant had between the stump and the fruit. I’m thinking about trying 10- side vines minimum on each side of my plants this year. Right now I’m holding out on fair plant pollinations until I have reached that goal. This will set my fruit out a little further than in the past.

6/6/2007 6:11:08 PM

No Place Special

Anyone have any thoughts or opinions if tracking side vines could be as important, more important or not as important as the simple distance out on the vine method? I may be mistaken but I think I recall the Wallace’s referring to number of side vines in their featured grower chat. Anyone else out there keep track of side vines? I’m thinking that keeping track of distance and # of side vines might be the way to go, but then will we also need to record length of the side vines as well and finally get as technical as how many leaves per plant…HA!???? I guess we can make this as easy or complex as we want. I for one could see the value of adding a field in the AGGC for # of side vines. Anyone else???

6/6/2007 6:11:20 PM

Alex, IN

Sounds very interesting Mike, I would like to hear some of the more experianced growers reply's to this. I looked at some of my pictures from 2005 when I grew my personal best 644. From what I can tell I had between 8 and 9 side vines before the fruit. The longest were close to 20 feet long and the shortest were about 8 feet long.

6/6/2007 6:29:39 PM

Colorado

might be easiest to just record sq. footage of the plant from the stump to the pumpkin at the time of pollination.

That would account for main vine length, and area covered by any side vines.

I would guess that bigger sq. footage at pollination equals a bigger pumpkin, but it would be cool to see some actual data.

6/6/2007 8:26:44 PM

[email protected]

I think this would be very valuable information if we can get folks to record & share it.

The GPC is going to try to collect this type of data at weigh-offs this year. The trouble is that many weigh-off officials are too busy yacking with the growers to collect the data let alone write it down & then enter it into a database. LOL

Too often the growers don't even record this data.

6/6/2007 8:40:40 PM

Western NY

I never record the number of side vines, but i do like to see at least 6 or 7 on each side before the pumpkin. it's something we've been looking at more closely the last few years.

6/6/2007 8:44:20 PM

Jericho Vermont

I have to take the side of Pete with the square footage of the plants, on account that a number of us growers don't have the space to allow 14 plus foot side vines. I only allow my side vines to grow 10-11 feet to fit my space and have always felt that I needed to have a pumpkin further out on the main than other growers due to this.But rarely do on account of slow vine grow and grower error.LOL

Probably one of the only ways to really compare apples to apples would be to go back to leaf counting. But even then the size of the leaves would come into play and most growers would refuse to do it.(myself included) Maybe we could go to square footage before the fruit and square footage after the fruit.

John

6/6/2007 9:16:24 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Mike, Your focus on this point is very interesting. I would like to add a bit about something that I have been studying for along time. The quantity should also go hand in hand with the quality. I believe we often try to serve to many masters with our early set fruit close to the crown. The plants often tend to be too immature and still have an excessive number of actively growing sinks. All those sinks compete for nutrients including Calcium. BES is common among such plants. I will wait this year for lots of sides that are terminated and focus growth to the only sink that matters. A few days past July 7th won't matter all that much. If it's gonna blow up because of a Ca deficiency having extra terminated sides makes more sense to me.

Russ

6/6/2007 10:57:52 PM

No Place Special

Only problem I see with going with the square footage is that Mr. Canadas plant and Mrs. Alabama's plant would or could easily cover the same square footage. Mr. Canada's plant would have more than twice as many roots and leaves.

6/6/2007 11:03:11 PM

Boulder County Colorado USA planet Earth

If Mr. East Coast grower, sits each day and drinks xx amount of beers, should he keep track?
Just kidding
Great poijt I have been wondering the same question.
Capt

6/6/2007 11:45:35 PM

Berlin,mi.([email protected])

Mike, the plant I grew my 1302 on had 9 side vines before the pumpkin. Here's a link to a diagram I made of it. The diagram is pretty accurate to the exact way the plant was pruned. http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=56915
One observation I made with this plant is that I notched the the main because I was worried that it would split. The notch I made past the pumpkin had a steady drip when I cut it. the notch in front of the pumpkin did not drip at all. I would not count out the plant past the pumkin as a contributer to late season growth.

6/7/2007 6:07:09 AM

Wood River, IL ([email protected])

Steve,

Could you explain the notch?

Thanks

Kenny

6/7/2007 7:12:51 AM

Berlin,mi.([email protected])

email sent your way kenny

6/7/2007 8:31:18 AM

Ohio

Good point Steve, I think the plant past the pumpkin contributes alot to the pumpkins growth, so how many sides before the pumpkin wouldn't really matter that much unless your counting secondaries on the entire plant.

6/7/2007 9:26:59 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Great Thread...

6/7/2007 10:28:22 AM

Ohio

How long were the side vines on that 1302?

6/7/2007 11:04:58 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

I know Paps and Ron said 12 - 14 feet out set the pumpkin, with 12' side vines on the 1502 Im thinkin.....To me thats pretty substantial and what I was doing wrong....so good post here.

6/7/2007 11:13:13 AM

Clinton, Iowa

Marc and I have been "keeping track" in a non official way for 4 or 5 Years. We always shoot for 8 to ten minimum as far as secondaries go (per side). This is the "factory" that the plant uses to grow that beast. Or atleast we feel the vast majority comes from this area (our opinion). later growth might come from the plant past the fruit as that area is younger and seems to be in better shape late in the season.
Length of main can sometimes be decieving as others have stated. Cold weather on early plants tend to 'stack" the secondaires closer together verses hot or warmer weather. In 2004 we had a great season although our best fruits never made it to scale to be in contest. We set alot of fruit out past 10 sidevines per side..some had 12 or 14...in any event all fruits that season (on 6 plants) were doing 40 plus pounds a day during peak growth the best was doing 58 to 60(ended up 1432). More then normal split. I think you take a chance when you set a fruit out there with such a powerplant behind it but we all are looking for that "special one " that holds together.
Last year we set a fruit on an early plant for a fair. it never grew more then 25 to 27 pounds a day at peak.We think some of that reason was because of the closeness to the stump. 6 to 7 feet out 3 on one side 2 on the other for secondaries.just speculating here. it did reach to the low 900's by the tape but I made a rookie mistake and she never was recorded on a scale...Oh well..we all learn thru the years ..LOL
DAN CARLSON

6/7/2007 11:46:46 AM

Clinton, Iowa

Our sides tend to be terminated at about 15 feet give or take.....limited space ... but we sometimes turn a few of the secondaries nearest the fruit and let them hook out around the fruit thus making them longer.does it help ?? who knows for sure..?? surely not Me and MArc!!!
DAN

6/7/2007 11:49:47 AM

Buffalo, MN ([email protected])

The number 7 is the minimum before I even consider polinating. I agree with all the growers that go for a higher number of side vines. The next thing I look for is aout 12+ feet but with state fair plants and late starting plants when I need to get one going because of the short growing season I look for seven side vines. Most of my competion plants have 8 to 10 side vines.

6/7/2007 1:52:48 PM

Team Munson

I agree with Dan I like to see 9+ sides on each side before the fruit. I also like to pollinate 12-14 feet out like the Wallace's, both I feel are very important in obtaining massive fruit. The point I feel this post is missing is timing. In my opinion in my area we have a 7-8 days window to pollinate a fruit that will give it the best chance to sit on the victory stand in the fall. The last 3-4 days of June and the first 4 days of July I feel are the prime days for setting your biggest fruit. I use this as a guide line not the law and factor in feet out on vine, fruit set up on the vine, segments etc... There are always exceptions to the rule and I am sharing best case senario for me. But what do I know I haven't done anything in 7 years LOL, good luck to all.
Dave

6/8/2007 8:40:19 AM

southwest MO

Sooo as these early females start appearing at 6-8' and such do you ignore them, prune immeadiately, set anyway?? There is usually very slim pickings of males this early to at least here where I grow. I love this stuff...

6/8/2007 10:04:52 AM

Ohio

Danny, I think you might be right on that growth comes later into the pumpkin using the secondaries as growth, because now that I think about, my 1068 Wallace stalled on me for a while when I cut its stump and approx 10 secondaries right up to the pumpkin. If this pumpkin had its secondaries before the pumpkin (and because it was a 1068 Wallace) I think this could have very easly been my first 1000lber.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=65161

Brooks

6/8/2007 5:07:38 PM