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Indiana

Breeding Plans

First off, this report is something that is long over due. As many of you know, I by no means know everything about genetics, but follow it very closely from a practical, scientific, and statistical point of view and understand more than most.

The topic of large scale breeding plans has come up more than one time on the message boards. I for one have been doing them on my own for years now, along with Welty who is currently taking a hiatus from a large breeding plan of his own.

In the winter of 2004/2005, Jack LaRue and Al Eaton got together and developed a plan for their #1 and #2 pumpkins in the world. At the time they were the first 2 official pumpkins over 1400 pounds. Without looking at the details they posted, basically they decided to give a 1420 and 1446 to anyone who would cross the 2 seeds to make a cross such as 1446 x 1420 or 1420 x 1446.

1/27/2007 3:28:07 PM

Indiana

I along with others saw this as a beautiful plan to proceed into the future. I chose not to participate, which looking back was a mistake because I had the ability to compare both parents to more plants than anyone else.

The plan that Jack and Al pioneered I feel is the first and the best example to fit what growers have been after.

Looking at the genetics, it’s very easy to see why it worked out so well. The proportions of the genetics in the past are very easy to break down and are a fantastic example of a plan that was developed and carried through to fruition.

1/27/2007 3:28:22 PM

Indiana

While looking at the family trees, it can literally be reduced back to the 846 Calai, 723/845 Bobier, and 898 Knauss. These are the primary genes in the seeds we use today. Basically, the cross I am discussing is everything what our COMBINED seed selection says we want, and nothing we do not.

846 Calai        37.5%
723/845 Bobier    37.5%    
898 Knauss        25.0%
Total             100%

Looking at the individual plants in the background
Parents average weight 1433
Grandparents average weight 1169
Great Grandparents average weight 1056 (I do not have info on the 845 that Brett Hester used to pollinate the 1104 in 2003)

1/27/2007 3:28:42 PM

Indiana

So to sum this up….. No wonder this cross has performed well. No wonder the weights are way up there. The growers that are involved in the last 3 generations are above average year in and year out, but what works for them will work for us even if it is on a smaller scale. The bottom line is this. Their work in this example shows the improvements made over the last few generations. This is exactly what happens when we use proven genetics in a thought out and well developed plan.

To analyze the seeds, in more detail, we would need all seeds planted in the year the seed was grown for both parents. We can use this to develop a statistical basis for evaluating both parents.

I know Vince has posted about this a little bit, and I am not trying to take credit for his ideas. I wanted to give what I think is a more comprehensive look at why this cross has done well, and why it should do even better in 2007.

1/27/2007 3:28:59 PM

Indiana

The 1231/998 Pukos, and 947 Hunt are not the only seeds from this cross that have potential. Just from looking at the stuff very quickly, perhaps the 1072/997 Girard seeds and 1083 Martin need another look. That’s just what I saw looking at them for about a minute. I would like to open this up for discussion and feel out some people that would like to go in cooperation with some plans that I have.

1/27/2007 3:29:16 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

I am interested.

1/27/2007 3:40:27 PM

Sophia WV

I am interested for sure!!!

1/27/2007 3:45:27 PM

Cheshire,Ma

Tom, I'm interested also.
Dan

1/27/2007 3:52:49 PM

Aloha, Oregon

I feel pretty intrested.

Jordan

1/27/2007 3:53:48 PM

Sparta, NC

I'm interested

1/27/2007 3:55:50 PM

[email protected]

I am going to grow the 668 Hammp(littlebit on bp.com) '06 (1231 Pukos '05 x 1446 Eaton '04). Nice color and shape! The thing I noticed is that is has a lot of (AxB)x(BxA) in it. Just my 2 cents!

1/27/2007 4:58:34 PM

New Salisbury IN

I'm interested

1/27/2007 5:12:26 PM

Utah, [email protected]

I am interested !
Bryson Ensign [email protected]

1/27/2007 5:28:53 PM

Santa Cruz, CA

I am interested.

1/27/2007 7:22:20 PM

That State Up North

Well, a great topic. I beleive the emphasis should be on the idea of "a plan" Al and Jack proposed a plan. It was a plan which was easy to convince growers to try. A number of growers in different environments made the planting and the cross. After the plan was executed, now the growing community could examine all the seeds produced and use their own methods to select the best seed.
The VWO operation which took place had great potential for being a similar project if only a little direction was added.

The idea of many people planting only one, or two of the best seeds in the world, and providing a means of comparison and selection of the best of the best is the basic idea of a plan.

I can easily suggest a plan, and I would be confident in its success. Following a very good plan is however more difficult (but easily possible). High numbers of plants always make me happier, but a simplistic aproach, and hoping that statistics will weed out the messy details should work well.

What we need are 100 growers, 100 of the best seed(s) in the world, and 100 of a seed (or clone) that is without genetic variation. Then the 100 growers need to give equal care to each plant grown for the project, and conduct controlled, planned pollinations.

Ok, so the 100 can change, but that gives the basic idea.

Additional comments and plans are welcome. I can elaborate more on how the plan would work given more time and interest.

I hope that what Jack and Al have done will illustrate that amazing results of colaborative work.


Nic Welty

1/27/2007 10:11:54 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Nic what do you mean by "a seed (or clone) that is without genetic variation"? Thanks -Jim

1/27/2007 10:38:05 PM

That State Up North

A seed that every time you plant it will produce the same result. Ie, a hybrid that is from two true breeding parents, or an actualy true breeding line. A seed with no genetic variation would be one that performs equaly every time you plant it, so that the only differences between plants are those caused by environmental variance.

A clone would obviously be genetically equal, but would have to be distributed grafted on a uniform rootstock, and developmentaly syncronized with the seedlings of the other "top seeds" selected for the project.

A hybrid seed which is very consistent could work well.

1/27/2007 10:45:22 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Nic, and Tom(?) is there such a seed available? Peace, Wayne

1/28/2007 1:27:11 AM

Eugene,OR

Tom & Nic: I think that the 1446.5 Werner might be the seed that should be used if you want to incorporate the 1068 into the plan somehow.

1/28/2007 1:55:08 AM

That State Up North

The 1446.5 certantly looks good, if we could get enough seeds from it to have a similar plan, that would be great. I have other suggestions, but want to see what everyone else has to say.
Such a hybrid does exist. The burpee prizewinner could be an option, also some other hybrid giant pumpkins that I have developed, or Tom may come close to fitting the description. Another very consistend inbred seed is the 291 Wolfe, I have grown more than 20 of them, and found that they were nearly identical every time. If someone else has grown 20-100 or more of a single seed, and has seen very consistent results, then they should also suggest a seed. The cloneing technology would be a great addition to the plan, but that apears to be in the future.


Nic Welty

1/28/2007 9:06:14 AM

Indiana

Talking to quite a few of the growers in chat the other night, its fairly aparent that its to late to get the number of seeds needed from a 1400 pounder to perform such a test in 2007. One thing I would like to do is plant out some projects in a competition setting. I know Nic has a few that he would like to see planted out as well. Is anyone interested in testing theory in 2007 and then going to the projects in 2008?

I think 1446.5 would be a great seed to plant in 2007 for a personal project if you can get ahold of one. Perhaps cross it with 1231/998.6 stuff or 1068 type stuff.

1/28/2007 11:03:14 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Tom count us in (LongBeard & TheWIz).

1/29/2007 9:23:32 AM