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Indiana

I saw a post about Agro K tonight, and it got me to thinking just what were the plant requirements and is it even possible to get the macronutrients in through the leaves in high enough quantities to help.

Tremor? I know you have something to say about this....so jump in and educate me.

How much water is in the leaves? How much water will the leaf hold at one time in relation to the leaf(1% or 10% of its weight???)? How do leaves absorb the foliar feed...active transport? Osmosis? I know it goes in through the stomata. so perhaps its osmosis??

Assuming that leaves are 90% water and can hold 5% of their weight (in a solution on the foliage with 100% uptake) of 10-8-8 it doesnt appear to me that we can get enough Nitrogen and Potassium to correct a anything worse than a very minor deficiency. The same appears true with Calcium and the 5% Calcium solution.

So my question is.....does this mean we should be drenching the stuff that the leaves cant absorb enough of instead?

I know this is kinda windy, but I couldnt sleep until I had it figured out...LOL

Tom

1/10/2007 11:53:40 PM

C N Y

if yer still up:
go here:

http://bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=10&p=165222

i found this and a bunch of other items about Agro K
by typing agro k into the search window on the
top left of this site's home page and hitting go.

as anyone should do but i also usually
forget to start with the
obvious. we all want fresh information, lol.
but at least now you have something to look at until Tremor's up, lol! eric g

1/11/2007 1:15:29 AM

[email protected]

Tom,

You caught me getting ready to run out the door but I'll revisit this thread. Agro-K is a spin-off of the grape growing industry where foliar applications are very popular especially due to the number of nutrients that are soil locked & therefore not usually soil applied where they would be wasted.

Here is a little to get started:

Peter Christensen is the Extension Viticulturist (Grape Guy) at The University of California Cooperative Extension.

Peter has done extensive research on the foliar absorption of micro & macro nutrients.

http://cetulare.ucdavis.edu/pubgrape/ng694.htm

The Peter's Professional Fertilizer Company (no affiliation) also did research on the actual absorption rate of it's own fertilizers in the '80's.

In short, if the soil was deficient of some element & the only source of NPK was a foliar application then foliar feeding would be a waste of time & material. However what isn't foliar absorbed (or volalized away) eventually falls to the soil where it can be utilized so the effort isn't wasted if the proper souce materials are used.

There are many other things to consider though when considering foliar apps.

>The source material
>Use of non-plant-food additives (like wetting agents)
>Time of day (evenings are best)

I believe that Agro-K works ao well because it is applied every single day & therefore creates a "funfistatic like" barrier that is inhospitable to airborne plant pathogens. The nutrients are probably not absorbed by the leaves as much as the roots but they are not wasted by any means.

More later

1/11/2007 7:49:25 AM

Sheridan . NY

HI ALL-- Im not going to get into this whole thing again about does foliar feeding work and is AGRO-K a HOAX-- We have talked about it about dozen times in the last few years-- Theres just so much Info out there to read by searhing the words foliar feed---but a brief answer-- The proof is in the pudding In the pumpkin world for the last 7 years and the last 15 for dozens fruit and vegatable farms in my area-- Info--> did ya know grapes and pumpkin are both realated to the Cucurbita Family --?? Carry on >>> craig

1/11/2007 9:08:18 AM

Indiana

Craig,
Why do you always take offense to everything? I'm asking if we would be better off to apply the N, K, and Ca applications another way. I dont see where you get offended on this. Its obvious your upset with me about something. Perhaps my order wasnt big enough or something. I have bought more of your products over the last few years than about any other competitive giant pumpkin grower. I obviously believe in some of the stuff. If you check my orders, I use an aweful lot of 10-8-8.
Tom

1/11/2007 9:48:25 AM

Indiana

My previous post came across a little less than pleasant unintentionally. I use a lot of the products mentioned. My point is that if foliar isnt working on some of the Macronutrients perhaps we should be drenching to the soil instead. The soil is a much less efficient way to apply meaning we would have to apply more product but perhaps would benefit more. Hopefully this clairify's stuff more. I didnt intend to offend anyone. I was looking for more of a technical discussion on the matter.
Tom

1/11/2007 10:34:04 AM

[email protected]

Agro-K is not a hoax nor is anyone suggesting it is. The record speaks for itself.

The Agro-K plan that Craig sells is made up of very good quality ingredients that are not easy to find by most people. No other merchant offers these materials in a program from a single source let alone with the support & experience the buyer would get from Craig.

I've bounced the Agro-K program off some of the finest fertilizer & crop health people I know. I could build the same NPK program from the same source materials if I visited 6 different manufacturers. LOL Why bother? Agro-K has a good thing going & folks should continue to support Craig as he is very supportive of the brotherhood.

If I'm reading his question properly, I think that Tom wants to know what percent of the applied NPK *CAN* be absorbed by the leaves versus the plants overall needs.

I don't know the exact answer to that question but I do know that a lot more than 90% of the plants NPK needs are absorbed through the roots. That balance can't & shouldn't be altered dramatically.

Potassium nitrate might be slightly more "foliar available" than the Agro-K potassium carbonate for finishing or the N in the 10-8-8 but I believe to change the program we would be giving up some of that "fungistatic barrier" (that I misspelled earlier). The potassium hydroxide in the 10-8-8 is awesome & very well suited for early season vine growth.

continued

1/11/2007 10:48:51 AM

[email protected]

Tom,

Bottom line: If an AG was grown in an inert soilless or hydroponic mix like sand, Rock-wool, Turface or Soil-Master with just plain water (no root nutrients at all), then the plant could NOT perform strictly on foliar applied nutrients. You might be able to keep it alive, but it would not perform. A drenching foliar treatment (applied beyond runoff) would cause the NPK to enter the inert mix where it would do more for the plant.

So if the plant was growing in a normal farm soil & the foliar applications were made to the point of runoff, the dripped material would be used more efficiently by the roots than it is by the foliage IF the soil is chemically in balance (no CEC issues) otherwise. However JUST flooding the Agro-K nutrients on the soil (daily apps not needed anymore due to the soil's CEC) then we'd lose out on the fungistatic benefits of the daily "barrier" treatments.

1/11/2007 10:48:58 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Would a tissue analysis render any additional benefits or measurable results? I have seen some of these offered. Both the Montana and Colorado EDU extensions state that foliar feeding is very beneficial in clay type soils and I is in used extensively in farming, nurserys, golf course maintenance, and food production.

1/11/2007 12:44:57 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Checkout this link

http://www.ecochem.com/foliar01.html

Tests have shown that up to 90 percent of a foliar fed nutrient solution can be found in the smallest root of a plant within 60 minutes of application. A project conducted at Michigan State University, using radio­active tagged nutrients, proved that foliar feeding can be 8 to 10 times more effective than soil feeding.

Additionally,

I never thought about the Ph of the water added to the spray........Craig??? It says should be Where possible, the pH of a foliar spray should be between 6.2 to 7.0. To promote young plant growth a sweeter (alkaline) solution (pH 7.0) is recommended. For established growth, a more sour (acid) solution (pH 6.2) is recommended.

1/11/2007 2:26:05 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Also:
http://www.alcanada.com/tech_WhyFoliar.html

Sorry to rob the post but this is good info......

1/11/2007 2:31:25 PM

Sheridan . NY

will reply in morin gary but yes you will find that many-many studys--were done- big chem co snuffed it out mid 50's

1/11/2007 3:06:58 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

It's believed that talking to your plants, or playing music to your plants effects the opening and closing of stomata. If you can figure out how to open stomata, that might lead to the more effective uptake of applied nutrients.

I'm planning to use the Steve Miller Band, Dire Straights, and Rush (a big shout out to my Canadian friends) next year.

1/11/2007 8:04:25 PM

Clinton, Iowa

Cliff..
I was reading your list of bands and you are AWESOME!!! greta list and I believe RUSH will get anything to open!!!LOL!!
DAN

1/11/2007 8:09:19 PM

New Bremen, Ohio

Rush deserves the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame

1/11/2007 8:17:35 PM

canal winchester ohio

If you really want to get the stomata to open put on a little Pink Floyd.

1/11/2007 8:32:25 PM

Central Pennsylvania [email protected]

The guy that grew the world record tomato uses a cb radio near his patch. He said that the plants closest to the radio were 14 feet high while the ones farthest away were only 7 feet high. There must be something behind this method.

1/11/2007 8:32:41 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

LOL... Outdoor speakers installed under the eaves on the shed, blaring "Closer to the Heart", will benefit the grower even if there is no effect on the plants. I'll have to look into this. Actually, it will benefit the plants if I end up spending more quality time out there.

OK, now I hope we can return to the original topic of this thread, which is very interesting!

1/11/2007 9:29:39 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Cliff....you're right. Stomata are open at their maximum during evening hours, especially during periods of high temperature. This prevents moisture loss. Night feeding is optimum when using foliar applications.

1/11/2007 9:42:24 PM

Ohio

Talk to Pap or Ron about music playing at their patch.

''Even if the music doesnt work it sure does help to keep the critters away'' Pap said. lol

Good post Tom

Brooks

1/12/2007 7:27:50 AM

Anamosa, IA [email protected]

I have read that foliar feeding with a little sugar added can be very helpful in adding pounds to the fruit. Since sugar production comes from photosynthesis in the leaves, the theroy is that foliar feeding with some sugar will trick the plant into sending more to the fruit. One midwest farmer claims he can really boost soybean yields by foilar feeding with a little added sugar. Has anyone tried this? Could this be some if the benefits of sparying a little molasses on the leaves?

1/12/2007 9:09:24 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

What about adjusting the PH of the water of the foliar spray......."Sweetening" the spray later in the season by adjust to a bit more acidic range?

1/12/2007 9:56:14 AM

Jericho Vermont

Molasses is in my foliar program twice a week. I believe it is a nice natural way to fend off cuke beetles as well.
John

1/12/2007 1:31:52 PM

Indiana

Cliff and others check out http://www.sonicbloom.com/ thye sell cd's/tapes that have a certain harmonic range that are supposed to help the stomata's open.

Steve

1/12/2007 2:44:02 PM

Wilmington.Ma.

John I used Molasses 2or 3 times a week .
I had plenty of cuke beetles.
George C.

1/12/2007 3:04:59 PM

Steve great link !!!

There's an interview with Dan Carlson wearing his favorite shirt !!

Amazing !!!!

Thanks for posting !!!!!!

1/12/2007 4:24:44 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

LOL, er... ROTFLMAO... now I think I've seen it all!

Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be a RUSH version. We need to get the boys working on that.

1/12/2007 5:00:46 PM

[email protected]

WOW

I can't believe I actually sat through that. For those that don't want to sit through that let it download then jump to the 8:55 mark. This is where the nut job waco, I mean that in the nicest possible way, claims to have grown the worlds largets pumpkin last year, a 1498 lber.

1/12/2007 9:22:17 PM

[email protected]

This just in sonic bloom won't only increase your yield 100% its also good for, but not limited to: rheumitisim, gout, broken bones, ring worm, blindness, mad cow disease, Parkinson's disease, Chron's disease, avian flu, herpes, sckizophrnia, testicular elephentitis, gun shot wounds, impotence, hair balls, indian attacks, fish that won't bite, flat tires and lost remote controls!!!

1/12/2007 9:42:11 PM

Montoursville, PA

You guys have missed the whole point. You absolutely must have a Spike Jones record. Spike Jones is the only big band guy that can scare the B-Jesus out of an otherwise average quiet resting thousand pumpkin into another five hundred pounds. Any Kruppa record might be second best. That final. No more which music. This will finally be revealed, in How to Grow Giant Pumpkins VI.

1/16/2007 9:04:18 PM