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It's winter & we have too much time on our hands. So we start conjuring up genetic plans for how we're going to slam a new personal best out of the patch next year. Hence the genetics board gets littered with grand new ideas that are supposed to solve old problems.

Here's the real deal:

1502 Wallace: Ronny grew the 1068 many times & never even hit 1100 lbs. Look it up if you don't believe me. But in 2006 he had a new patch with no soil borne Fusarium. BANG! World Record. Ron's a world class grower who learned how to hit the wall hard doing everything else right. But he could never & will never hit 1500 in the old patch.

1407 Wolf: Andy was also in a brand new patch when he grew his 1407.

Same seeds. Same growers using the same outstanding techniques & disciplines.

The only significant difference was their new patches with no disease pathogens.

That’s it. No secrets & no silver bullets. Just great genetics used by great growers in disease free soil.

It wasn't a new & mysterious genetic set. The 723 was 6 years old. The 1068 was 3 years old. Both had been grown hundreds of times often by equally experienced growers under similar weather conditions.

The ugly reality? The Real Deal?

Most growers have destroyed their soil with Fusarium long before they learn how to manage their season or secured the greatest seeds. So while they're learning how to grow they're also ruining their chances of ever "getting lucky".

One of the best growers I know, maybe THE MOST disciplined grower there is hit the Fusarium wall about 3-4 years ago. We put a nearly perfect fungicide program into place & his weights steadily climbed to by about 15-20% which was about 15-20% LESS than his genetic & cultural potential.

All because there is no currently known way to keep Fusarium under control once it's teeth are sunk into a growers butt.

continued

1/4/2007 12:13:39 AM

[email protected]

The moral?

New growers should spend several years building a decent soil in the place they would like to grow where the soil drains & the sun shines & water & electricity are not an issue. BUT DON'T GROW THERE. Correct the soil & build the biology. Control the weeds & keep a "friendly" cover crop on it. Keep building a seed collection from the current years offering so you have the "good stuff" after other growers have figured out which seeds have the "good stuff".

For now, find another place to grow some average seeds of known quality but aren't selling at auction for more than a decent irrigation system. You'll have fun & develop skills & relationships while the dreaded Fusarium starts to find your "learning patch". Your weights will increase every year despite the dreaded & inevitable scourge that will arrive.

When it does, burn the Fusarium shoes you used to garden in. Wash the tiller with bleach & go break ground in that 3 year old honey patch you've been building & grow a new World Record on one of the many fine seeds you've been hoarding that weren't worth a dime more than a stamped bubble envelope when you got them 3 years ago.

1/4/2007 12:13:59 AM

Netherlands

Tremor, does it help to switch the plants around? I mean having the main root in the south one year and in the north the next year?

I'm likely growing the 1302 Zuhlke in a new patch this coming year. We will see.

1/4/2007 4:14:49 AM

Western NY

Brad - I'll find out this year. I plan on switching the direction of my plants around.

I think it all depends on how healthy you keep your soil for the long run. Then again, maybe it's just bad luck. Nobody has yet gotten a new personal best after they hit 1400 (dmg or official). In fact, the year after 1400 isn't usually noteworthy. Jack Larue has done the best (1201) following a 1400 year. It will be interesting to see how Quinn and the Wallaces do this year. no pressure, guys!

1/4/2007 8:18:45 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Any thoughts on this winter Steve...Seems last year was much colder and more snow yet we saw way to much fusaria in the patches...I thought this might have been caused by the wet spring...but a real concern is without any snow cover or deep frost are we really in for it this year...on the other hand without the snow, nitrogen levels might be lower come spring delaying a fusaria bloom. Have to wonder if pathogens are more likely to bloom before the beneficials.

1/4/2007 8:56:26 AM

[email protected]

Brad, Switching the crown location certainly doesn't hurt our chances but it isn't the same as rotating away from Cucurbita for 2 years. That's my personal long-term goal. I want enough land that I can have THREE patches with only ONE in use at any given time. It just won't be happening in the Fairfield County area that's for sure! LOL

Andy, I agree that Jack epitomizes the healthy patch approach with his unusually consistent results. We sat at Niagara over dinner & beers & tried to figure it out. The one unique thing Jack does do differently is his no-till approach. He just adds a fresh layer of composted organic material every year without tilling. So if he never plants a Fusarium tainted seed & never adds a fusarium tainted organic amendment his patch should STAY clean.

Chuck, I'm getting asked a lot about this mild winter. There are many flying insects still active which is unheard of in January.
It is true that a cold hard winter damages soil pathogens. But just as sure as the good guys wake back up every spring - so too the bad guys. Nature always finds a way to bounce back from weather abnormalities.
Last year's increase in Fusarium is directly attributed to two EIGHT INCH rain events during the ideal innoculation period.

Fusarium doesn't find our patches by chance. Water is the most natural means of disbursal. Contaminated amendments is probably the next most likely source. Rental equipment, seeds & dirty feet are likely means of transmission too.

continued

1/4/2007 11:15:52 AM

[email protected]

I sometimes shudder when I think about patch tours. It would be wise for our Grower Clubs to start using a squirt bottle filled with 10% Bleach during the patch tours for anyone who walks the boards. Just because a grower has never seen Fusarium damage doesn't mean there is no transmittable pathogens on his/her shoes.

The "DISEASE TRIANGLE" has 3 legs:

Pathogen
Host
Environment

Any 2 is still a clean grow. Combine the 3 & we're going to have at least some trouble. Extremes of environment can cause an otherwise mild infection to explode.

1/4/2007 11:15:58 AM

maine USA

Fusarium is transmitted by seeds? Isn't that just wonderful. Would soaking the seeds briefly in a 10% bleach solution prevent this transmition? I agree with Tremor about patch tours, it is a wonderful thing that the growers do, but precautions need to be taken. Bacteria and fungus is transfered from one place to another very easily. KathyT

1/4/2007 1:17:12 PM

Eugene,OR

bingo

1/4/2007 4:23:00 PM

New Bremen, Ohio

Last week I was e-mailing Beachy about this subject. One has to wonder approaching mid January with no froze line in the patch and 50 degree weather will do with soil-borne diseases.

Would it be beneficial with this crazy weather to continue to introduce beneficials on your patch during this so-called winter?

1/4/2007 4:31:59 PM

Farmville, Virginia ([email protected])

Ok, I'm probably the slowest person here...what exactly is fusarium?

1/4/2007 6:28:20 PM

[email protected]

Fusarium oxysporum is a (mostly) soil borne disease. When the soil warms in the later spring the pathogens wake up & innoculate the root system in as little as 15 minutes.

Once inside the vascular system the effect of clogging tubes may be subtle & besides a general slow down is barely noticed.

Moderate cases may see a midday wilting of the leaves & a more serious reduction of growth. Leaves might break off at ground level with a tell-tale orange colored scab developing at the point of breakage.

Serious cases result in whole setions of the vine turing to an (often) orange tinted mush.

Post season root examination shows gray-brown spots on the now heavily diseased & barely functioning root system.

It is spread by Chlamydospores which can remain dormant and infect the soil for many years. I've heard wishful growers claim that a 3 year rest will break the cycle but too often this is not the case. Chlamydospores are covered in a hard shell that protects the pathogen all too well.

From one of my customers:

http://sciweb.nybg.org/science2/hcol/fusarium3.asp

Fusarium infects many crops, grasses, weeds, etc.

Here is the OSU Fact Sheet which focuses on melons:

http://sciweb.nybg.org/science2/hcol/fusarium3.asp

1/4/2007 8:16:39 PM

[email protected]

Here is a picture of a friends plant that was pretty heavily infected. View this image as well as the following two. All three images are the same plant.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/displayphoto.asp?pid=3780&gid=-21025

He managed a 525 lb pumpkin off this plant but had he gotten his arms around the problem earlier in the year he would have had a much bigger fruit.

A day after these pictures were taken I gave him some Banner which he promptly mixed at a higher rate than I recommended & also managed to cause some spray injury. LOL

1/4/2007 8:22:02 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

Biological Control of Soilborne Fungi

It is known that certain fungal species in the genus Trichoderma feed on mycelium and sclerotia of Sclerotinia minor. Sclerotium rolfsii and Rhizoctonia sp. All peanut fields in Texas tested to date have a natural population of Trichoderma. For several years, tests have been conducted in Texas using corn meal to stimulate Trichoderma development as a way to control the major soilborne disease fungi. When yellow corn meal is applied to fields in the presence of moist surface soil, Trichoderma builds up very rapidly over a 5 to 10 day period. The resulting high Trichoderma population can destroy vast amounts of Sclerotinia, Sclerotium and Rhizoctonia. This enhanced, natural biological control process is almost identical to the processes that occur when crop rotation is practiced. The level of control with corn meal is influenced by: 1) organic matter source 2) soil moisture, 3) temperature, and 4) pesticides used. Seasonal applications of certain fungicides may inhibit Trichoderma. Testing will continue to determine the rates and application methods that will give consistent, economical control.

1/4/2007 8:29:44 PM

[email protected]

Good stuff Brian. As you know there are many ways to try to skin this cat.

Trichoderma is a powerful biological control agent. Rate & timing are the big issues that I've noticed. Growers I know who have failed using Trichoderma tend to overapply early then forget about re-applying at the ideal time. The window of control moves around on us so the calendar is not of much use. Soil & air thermometers are critical tools when trying to manage Fusarium. The disease is favored by low soil pH and cooler soil temperatures (50-68°F), ammoniacal nitrogen, and waterlogged soil. Ammoniacal Nitrogen makes Fusarium worse while Nitrate Nitrogen can lessen the severity.

Bacillus Subtilis is another strong biological that may be employed to manage Fusarium.

A 30 day Summer Solarization has been found to be very effective against Fusarium as this lettuce study indicates:

http://cals.arizona.edu/pubs/crops/az1419/11_WEB.PDF

1/4/2007 10:50:58 PM

Rhode Island

correction steve

i know your comments mean well, however.

to say ron never went over 1100 with the 1068 before last year is insulting to both him and i.

in 2005 we both grew the 1068 out to est weights of mid twelves and mid thirteens, they dont show up on any charts because they never made it out of the patch.
yes, disease was a big problem, but the fruit if picked a week earlier would have been on record. no big deal here, just setting your comment straight.

yes, its true that diseases and/or controling them is a big key factor in any growers success rate.
we realize this and did go to a new area because of this condition.

but please dont use us as an example until such time as you have yourself grown something worth while.

i wonder out loud how steve jepson would feel if someone said he never grew anything even close to 700 pounds so why is he telling us what to do?

in no way would i deminish any growers success in the manner in which you refered to ron.
hes a world record holder and deservedly so. he worked very hard for a lot of years , researching, reviewing, gathering information from various soil and plant growing experts.
he took many sharp sticks in the eye and late season disapointments before hitting that world record.most would have quite long before that.

its kinda a back handed slap to say he never grew anything over 1,100 lbs before last year. true or otherwise.it takes away from his accomplishment dont you think?

no hard feelins, just my personal take on your post.

pap

1/4/2007 11:55:00 PM

Eugene,OR

I don't think that Steve is trying to disrespect anyone here, but rather pointing out that healthy soil (which hasn't had pathogens introduced which limit the growth potential of AG's)just may be the answer to growing really big ones. Another grower who grew a personal best after breaking new ground is Pete Glasier with his 1195 in '05. As I look back at my personal experience, I know a whole lot more about growing these things than I did my first year...but that 845 Bobier I grew in my rookie year grew one of my largest fruit ever...and now I cringe when I think about some of the things I did to mess that plant up. Now that I "know what I'm doing" I have soil issues to deal with...and fruit that grow for 45-50 days before they stop. I think that there is a lot of truth in what Steve is getting at here.

1/5/2007 12:56:47 AM

Lexington, Ky

I thought Tremors post was sort of a pat on the back for some! I also thought it to be an outside of the box approach to our madness.

As a relative new grower, to turn an ear on Tremors advice would be equal to dismissing Don Langevins teachings via three books. Perhaps Don and Tremor have had mediocre results but I would dare say that they aren't good mentors.

1/5/2007 1:52:06 AM

[email protected]

Dick,

No insult intended at all. I know Ronny had a 1300-ish fruit go downin '05. That is the point of the thread after all. Not a stab at the grower...just stating the fact that the patch was finished. The fact that the biggest one out alive was 400 lbs less than your true known potential IS the point of the thread.

You & Ron (and Andy) have PROVEN the point with the results which is why I posted it.

To do the new patch justice it should be rested this year.

1/5/2007 8:01:04 AM

Farmville, Virginia ([email protected])

I don't see how Steve's post is a slight to ANYONE! He was simply making a point (and a good one) about soil and disease issues. I don't think he was downing the Wallace's because of lack of a "giant" on the 1068 before this year. Just stating a fact of what it took to finally get that giant! Lord knows nobody in there right mind would question the ability of Ron or Pap! They are very good! Thanks for the info Steve, definitely good info!!!

1/5/2007 8:10:21 AM

[email protected]

Those who can do. Those who can't teach (or sell).

Multiple sclerosis has taken away my ability to walk more than a couple hundred feet without stopping. So how is it that the Boy Scouts of America has continued to find room for me at higher levels? I sure don't walk with my Boy's on hikes any more! LOL But oh-boy do I ever lead them on hikes! Leadership Dick.

I don't push a fertilizer spreader any more either. In my day I'd spread (walking) up to One Million square feet per week for 37 weeks every year. My legs were like tree trunks! But I can't do my own level 3500 sq ft lawn without resting now. Yet I just turned the Green Industry in New England upside down by taking away a 1100+ ton order from the biggest supplier in the world.

The fact Ronny ever pulled 1100 or 1300 out of the old patch is a miracle considering we now know that he & the 1068 had a 400 lb handicap. Moving to the new patch was like taking a 400 lb pack off his back right before the hike. His talent & discipline are proven by the fact he ever pulled 1100 up to a scale with a 400 lb gorilla on his back.

The Gorilla jumps onto our back as a baby early in the growing career. We're so strong & inexperienced that we don't even realize he's there. Every year that we stay in the same patch we feed the Gorilla the & he gains more weight. But we keep getting stronger as we learn so the results continue to improve but the Gorilla is getting heavier every year. Look what happens when we throw off the gorilla. The same strong body doing the same highly disciplined things with the same genetics. But no more gorilla.

Ever been to the zoo?

Please don't feed the animals.

1/5/2007 9:41:19 AM

Rhode Island

Steve
my comments have nothing to do with your physical condition.
Theres nothing wrong with your ability to type and choose your words.
I to have numerous medical conditions but do not choose to publizice them here on bp. those are personal matters.
ya cant throw a grenade then when its returned explain yourself while playing the heart strings card.
my last comment on the subject.
pap

1/5/2007 10:40:30 AM

Montoursville, PA

Cow manure of the male variety knows no boundry. When it is found between the ears of an otherwise intellegent person some very smelly stuff comes out. Thus I must assume from observation that the wonderful stuff for the patch does absolutely nothing for the human brain development. I might suggest that anyone not aflicted likewise steer clear of innoculation in as much as possible.

Meanwhile back at the ranch where I have only one meager thousand square foot patch by feeding and applying only soil building elements a very sick patch was corrected while continuing to grow with the presence of numerous ugly factors. The production over four years were 710, 400, 400 and 763 last year. How can this be in the same aproximate conditions experienced by all Eastern growers last year? This was achieved with help and very healthy rebuilt soil biology. My health issues are likewise very limiting. It's lots of fun crawling about the patch the with oxygen in tow. Without some gratifying help from local grower friends it could not have been. One does not know where the real friends are until one needs help. One you folks are getting to know was Scotiboy. He continued helping with others in spite of the fact he made a mistake and nuked his whole patch. Guess I broke the rules. I and my help did not grow the 763. The healthy patch grew it. We only helped a little.

1/5/2007 11:42:34 AM

[email protected]

.

I just got off the phone with Ronny. He's literally getting on the plane (for the cruise) as I type. We're still good friends.

THIS THREAD WAS NOT A SHOT AT RONNY!

Ok...Now I've just talked with Dick. He's OK now too.

They both expalined to me how one line in this thread has been taken out of context & I am VERY sorry. I didn't choose very good words to get the point across & can see how someone who doesn't know us might take it to mean something else.

Here's what I said: "1502 Wallace: Ronny grew the 1068 many times & never even hit 1100 lbs. Look it up if you don't believe me."

I wrote that very poorly & it's been taken as a back stab. I'm going to need to write a stinking book to get everyone settled back down but I have to now since folks don't always walk away with the thoughts that a writer is trying to express.

All I did was take the AGGC stats & coldly stated what was there without explaining all of the other fruit that didn't make it to a scale.

Ronny is a World Class grower who has broken a thousand pounds every year for many, many years. Look THAT up if you don't believe me. None of my virus infected fruit or explosions are on the AGGC either. They shouldn't be.

He's only grown the 1068 four times prior to 2006. He was taping well north of 1300 lbs in 2005 but fusarium ripped the guts out a week before the weigh-off. He won Durham one year with a 916.8 that was grown on the 1068. That plant also had fusarium & he lost the crown EARLY. So by back-feeding with 120 sq ft of (mostly) forward secondaries he still managed another 800 lbs!!! That's INCREDIBLE! I had a picture of the 916.8 as my screen-saver for 2 years because I loved the ribby looks of that 1068 Salmon pumpkin flesh.

continued

1/5/2007 1:13:04 PM

[email protected]

Folks who don't know the Wallace's (or me) have mistakenly taken this post to suggest that I am implying that Ron never grew anything before the 1502 & merely got lucky in 2006. Nothing could be further from the truth but I can see how this would have been the impression. But the emails & phone calls that Dick got made it look like I was flaming Ronny. Knock it off. This is a thread designed to get those growers who CAN rotate to start doing it.

Andy & I had this same conversation at Niagara AFTER he grew his 1407 so he seems to better understand this thread's intent. But then I also didn't use his name either. If I had he might have freaked out too.

I should have called Ronny & Dick & had the same type of conversation BEFORE posting this so it wouldn't have had this impact.

Ron & I talk about every week all summer. We're friends but not everyone who called Dick seems to know this. My sincere appologies if I offend anyone else by explaining all of this.

1/5/2007 1:13:09 PM

Western NY

My situation was a little different. I didn't max out at 917 at the old place because of the soil. I think it was growing in the village with too many trees around, and overextending myself with the number of plants i would put in.

i moved out into the country, 20 minutes (each way) closer to work, and got married to a chick that put almost as much work into my plants as i did.

oh - and i brought my old soil with me. the roots of the plant where my big one were grown got a good dose of the same soil that i had grown a 704, 685, 917, 785, 414, and 435 in previous years.

1/5/2007 2:43:44 PM

[email protected]

I need one of those pumpkin chicks!

1/5/2007 4:04:01 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

But would this not have brought soil pathogens with it? I agree with a new soil to assist with growing big just due to my experience growing flowers and veggies in new dirt in the garden. I would turn over grass and let it rot in the winter to plant new flower beds. Every year I would add more and more flower beds where it use to be grass. The first year beds always did phoenomenal with larger then normal flowers greater in quantity, then lesser and lesser as the years went on. I believe trace elements, and nutrients had been used up, thats what needs to be replenished back into the soil, so I believe we still have some unknowns to figure out......How can fresh dirt be better when it still has inadequate and excessive quantities in need of soil balance?

1/5/2007 4:16:14 PM

wellallrightythen,,,this is much easier now,,

If I got this straight,, all we really have to do is pickup the patch, move it 20 miles outta town, find us a hard working chick, marry her,,,and poof instant HUGE pumpkin !!!

Thanks Andy for sharing the real secrets of your success...

1/5/2007 5:38:44 PM

Western NY

don't forget to get her knocked up mid-season. it seems to add a little luck to the year.

1/5/2007 5:46:08 PM

duly noted !

1/5/2007 6:51:54 PM

Minnesota

Finally, some much needed humor - good job guys. LOL

1/5/2007 7:06:28 PM

SF Bay Area, California

oh yeah! this is all great stuff....

1/5/2007 7:28:51 PM

[email protected]

Kathy asked about fusarium riding in on seeds. This is highly unlikely since we start seeds in pots. If a seed has fusarium chlamydospores on it (unlikely but possible) it will damp off & die either before or right after it emerges. I made several calls today & cannot confirm or dispel the theory that fusarium can even enter the embryo.

When dealing with a fusarium diseased fruit, merely cleaning the seeds in a 10% bleach solution will take care of any pathogens. We should all be cleaning our seeds in a bleach solution anyway so this isn't a big deal.

1/5/2007 9:30:57 PM

maine USA

Thanks Tremor, I was feeling, well, overlooked.:} KathyT

1/5/2007 11:50:11 PM