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California Bay Area

I covered my female the day before it opened and brought two males that were about to open inside the night before(the bees having been robbing me blind). I pollinated this morning and recovered the female. Its warm (75 degrees) out and the female is covered. I shaded the female so no sun would hit it. Will the increased heat inside the bag have an affect on the female? Can it cause an abort? want to keep the bugs and bees out but do not want to cause an abort. I wont have another female for about 10 days and maybe to late for the season. Any help would be great. I wish there was a seperate thread for all pollination question just for this time of year. Thanks so much, yomama

7/3/2005 1:54:02 PM

Follansbee, Wv

I use twist ties from garbage bags. They work fine.

7/3/2005 2:08:28 PM

California Bay Area

Thanks for the reply. Having the bag covering the flower will increase the temp in the bag. Will this have an affect on pollination? How long should the bag stay on after pollinating?

7/3/2005 2:57:09 PM

Montoursville, PA

Some guys cover after pollination for a period of time. I am of the school that believes, and I think correctly, that the pollination is complete and absolute once you have introduced your pollen. It's kinda like you can't get any further action if the bees beat you to it....so it makes sense to cover the night before. I do not believe the cover is needed after pollination. Once done is done!

This will surely draw some disagreement but I stand firm on the comment until someone will lead me, to knowlege, that proves me wrong. If one bee can screw up your plans working ahead, of you, why then would you be concerned if you know, for absolute certain, that you made the initial pollination?

7/3/2005 4:31:42 PM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

could be correct but is it really that much more work to tie the flower close after pollination? Takes about 5 seconds and assures a clean cross.

7/3/2005 6:50:00 PM

Long Island,New York

You absolutely need a cover after introducing the pollen of choice. Anything less is open pollination with SOME of the pollen known. It takes time for pollen to grow pollen tubes to the ovary...and not all seed sites are taken with a swab or three of a male .....a bee/bug etc visiting your flower after foraging in multiple males will easily leave various pollen and shuffle the deck of your selected pollen. Its open if uncovered.

7/3/2005 9:26:06 PM

Canada

This Year I'm useing panty hose to cover the flower once pollinated, this will allow air flow and will keep the critters out, I also built 2 large boxes screaned in landscape material which I let the vine grow through the female sits in the middle and gets shade all day long keeps the temps down just a tad too

Dave

7/3/2005 9:31:46 PM

fast easy way for me-just use binder clip---http://bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=34092

7/3/2005 9:58:10 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

I use the binder clips too, if you leave it open after pollination it is not a controlled pollination.

7/3/2005 10:40:54 PM

San Diego

I use panty hose too, seems to work good and no heat builds up. If I can use it in san diego and be ok, shouldwork anywhere with heat. Jimmy

7/3/2005 11:15:06 PM

[email protected]

Binder clips, clothes pins, twist ties....all work well if the petals don't rip. When they do I get nervous & cover with the wife's spent pant hose. I really don't trust a plastic bag what with heat build up.

I am of the opinion the female must remain closed for the day the deed is done. How long in actual hours I have never been able to ascertain. I hope someone can provide a definitive answer since I've never gotten one yet.

7/3/2005 11:38:28 PM

Nashville, TN

I tried the plastic bags first... Cooked all the females... Then a nice guy told me to tie them shut the night before - then tie them after pollination.. I cut 8" sections of waste Hay rope - ties them up just fine. Day after, I generally remove flower since it's wilted and easily comes off..

Hay rope is also easily seen, I'm sure a bright colored yarn would work as well.

Have only had one abort on the GPs so far..

7/4/2005 8:49:06 AM

Montoursville, PA

I know of no commercial seed producing that closes the female after pollination.

I spoke with a professinal seedsman. His answer was simple we do not cover or protect in any way. His seed is certified and considered as one, of the best, in the business. He was interested but could see no reason to close a female after pollination. He likewise could not reference me to any knowlege on this specific topic.

Since the females can not even be covered in large commercial applications distance, to other plantings, becomes the cover. In many instances hand pollination is administered the same as we pumpkin or squash growers do it.

7/4/2005 9:24:40 AM

Long Island,New York

That doesn't mean its a pure cross.
Commercial has very little to do with what we do.
Just because he can't reference any info doesn't mean its not out there, and since he doesn't even see why you would close a female after pollination tells me he's a farmer, not a scientist.
If you don't close before and after>>> its open pollination. ...plain and simple.That means if you grow one plant and leave it open its not by self...its open.There are many many wild squash out there. Volunteers in people's compost piles and behind the sheds we don't know about etc.
You owe it to the guy you give seeds to to tell the true story.

7/4/2005 10:36:57 AM

Joliet, IL

this year i have used small plastic zip ties you can find in the electrical department of any store. get 7" ties or larger, make the loop and begin to zip just a bit. then pull the female petals to a point, slide the loop over the petals and pull the zip tie secure, but not too too tight. it is the easiest method for me.

7/4/2005 5:50:12 PM

[email protected]

We certify open pollinated grass seed. But breeder's stock is another matter all together.

Open pollinations were the norm up until the 1980's. Note the lack of references at AGGC. Only a grower in relative isolation could claim to be "working a line" back then. But if he lived close to another grower of cucurbita, his "line" would produce inconsistent progeny. Likewise if ahe grew another growers stocks, it would take several years of bee pollinations to "color the line" with the new traits. The problem with this is easy to see. If the "cross" failed to deliver the desired result, the grower had a plethora of useless seeds.

7/4/2005 6:58:38 PM

Montoursville, PA

As usual some folks are getting way off the subject. I raised a question based, on opinion...clearly stated as an opinion...."NOT A PRACTICE" So far there has been no reference, to any material, that might shed accurate light, on that opinion.

When minds are closed all possible future education has been blocked, by emotion.

Remember science is accurate only untill they or someone else professionally finds another better way, to do something. Sometimes the wonderfull discovery has to be taken clear off the market. Sometimes the seed in it's simplest form has become a monster they wish they had never planted, in the first place. Yes even when held, to the highest degree, of proper professional development science has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they need watchdogs and challenge.

7/5/2005 2:34:09 PM

Indiana

Please correct me if im worng! My thoughts are based on 1 grain of pollen = 1 seed. if we polinate a female with three males and pollinate 700 of the possible 1500 seeds. (all numbers are hypothetical) as soon as you turn around to leave a bee carying pollen from a summer squash jumps on the flower and does his thing, pollinating 150 more of the possible 1500 seeds. Wouldnt you have to call this a open pollination?? I could see no need to cover after a pollination if you were working with a fruit that has only 1 seed. but that is not the case here.

7/5/2005 4:41:49 PM

Indiana

Wrong jeese I should check my spelling first

7/5/2005 4:42:36 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

The standard of practice at present is that the involved males and females are covered the night before pollinating. After pollination the female is covered again for usually 24 hours. This is what everyone has been doing for a good while and is the accepted practice. This practice should be continued until someone presents some data that would justify a change in procedure. The references are everything written thus far about the pollination of pumpkins including what is stated in the Bible of Pumpkin growing, Don Langevin's book.

7/5/2005 4:51:07 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

I was thinking the same thing as moondog.
A bee could come in a do some pollinating minutes after you do it. I'd play it safe, and cover the female again.

7/5/2005 5:50:02 PM

Montoursville, PA

Hey Doc.......watch out for that word everyone! Because of observation and verbal contact I certainly had reason for my question or statement.

As is witnessed within the above comments there is room, for impurity, on the male when mature males are picked and used the following morning. Brand new morning opening males thus far this year have shown no pollen grains in our area. The grains of pollen are, in the flowers that are a day or two old. If bees go there take some and leave some there is impurity sure as life.

7/5/2005 7:08:10 PM

Ontario, Canada.

If there are any unfertilized ovules available during the first few hours of opening they could be unequivicably been fertilized thus rendering the cross technically open.

The 24 hour cover up rule is most effective.

7/5/2005 7:52:55 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Fundamentals of Genetics

http://bioweb.cs.earlham.edu/9-12/fundamentals/

"In 1843 at the age of 21 Gregor Mendel was given the task of tending the garden. He used his knowledge of statistics to analyze biological phenomena. He observed that some tall pea planets produced tall offspring, while other tall pea planets produced short offspring.

The phenomenon Mendel was observing is called inheritance, the passing of traits by heredity. Heredity is the transmission of traits from parents to their offspring. Plants that are pure for a trait always produce offspring with that trait".

7/5/2005 7:58:21 PM

[email protected]

The following in no way speaks directly to the breeding of Atlantic Giants. But it does help explain the accepted practices of closed pollination that is practiced by commercial breeders.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/genes/gene_safari/breeding_zone/grow_yr_own4.shtml

__________Begin Clip_______________________________

Techniques for cross-pollination by nursery owner Tim Branney

Plants are naturally pollinated by a variety of different agents, such as the wind, birds, and bats, even slugs in the case of Aspidistra! But the vast majority of garden plants are naturally pollinated by flying insects. It is their action you are going to try to replicate, by transferring pollen from the male part of one plant to the female part of another.All flowering plants have the same basic sexual organs so the first step is to take a very close look at the open flowers of the plants you wish to cross and identify:

<> the male anthers of the chosen pollen-producing plant

<> the female stigmas that are receptacles for pollen on the chosen seed-bearing plant

This may sound obvious, but floral reproductive parts have evolved into a multiplicity of convoluted forms, some more obvious than others!

Techniques for cross-pollination:



1.) Both plants must be sexually mature. With the pollen producing plant this means looking for free, dust-like, dry pollen. With the seed-bearing plant the tip of the stigma will visibly open and become slightly sticky - some breeders recommend using a very dilute honey solution to increase stickiness and stigma receptivity.

2.) Next, fresh pollen must be transferred from the anthers of the pollen-producing plant to the stigma of the seed-bearing plant using one of two possible techniques:


continued

7/5/2005 10:11:01 PM

[email protected]

<> The traditional method is to transfer the pollen using a fine artists brush. This can be dipped in pure alcohol to sterilise the brush between pollinations. (You can also use a cotton-bud, which has the benefit of being disposable, thus removing contamination possibilities.)

OR

<> I find by far the best method however, is to use fine pointed tweezers to pinch off a stamen and use it like a brush to paint the stigmas with pollen. This can be fiddly on smaller plants, but transfers the maximum amount of pollen without the possibility of contamination.


3.) Pollinated flowers now need to be protected from further pollen contamination, as well as from damage. Again, hooding or isolating the plant is best for the few days following pollination. You can label flowers with coloured soft thread or wool to mark those that have been pollinated without risking damage to the neck of the flower.

4.) The pollination should be repeated on two or three successive days to ensure you hit the maximum receptiveness of the stigmas.

Preventing unwanted pollination
In attempting to cross-pollinate garden plants you will have two vigorous competitors, both of which must be prevented from doing the job before you do.

Insects: Protecting the seed-bearing plant from unwanted pollination by insects can best be achieved either by "hooding" - placing a breathable material, or paper bag over the flower before it becomes sexually mature - or, even better, by isolating the plant entirely. (Small plant types can be pot-grown and then taken indoors when the flowers are about to open.)
Self-pollination: Some species are self-incompatible, meaning that a particular flower is not receptive to its own pollen, but most are receptive. Emasculating the seed-bearing plant, which involves the careful removal of the stamens before they mature and produce pollen, should prevent self-pollination.

7/5/2005 10:11:13 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Last week, when I pollinated the second female on my 905, I closed her up and started pruning. Within 2-3 minutes I saw a honey bee on top of the flower. It was fighting like heck to get in. I watched for several minutes to make sure my method of securing her would really work. The bee finally gave up and moved on. Had it gotten in, it would have been an open pollination, because there is no way I could tell which flowers it had already been in. Just because you brushed some pollen in there, that doesn't mean the flower is pollinated yet. I leave mine tied up until the blossom falls off.

7/6/2005 8:04:05 AM