From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Abbotsford, B.C

My 977 Hester is producing absolutely an abundance of the oddest mutations you have ever seen! There are at least two of the male flower/leaf fuses, but the oddest mutation of this plant is it's tertiary vine/tendril fusing. There is this 'tertiary vine' that has grown near the base of the pumpkin, and there is about an inch and a half between tendrils branching of, just like leaves coming from a vine. Then, at the end of this 'vine' are several two inch leaves branching off from the end of this odd tendril/vine mix. There is even a miniature vine tip that is growing! I have also noticed male flower/leaf fuses on my 822 Hester and my 753 Eaton. Is it just me, or it there a much greater abundance of mutations than before? Are these mutations harmful? The tendril/vine mutation is so weird, that I am letting it grow, just to see what will happen. Imagine if you grew one of these vines and got it to flower, and then pollinated it with a leaf/flower fuse male pollen!! The muto-Atlantic Giant. All new for 2006, get yours for only 100$ each! Has anyone else seen any weirder mutations than these? If so would you mind telling about them?

Cameron

6/17/2005 12:40:44 AM

Rhode Island

cameron

you just may have the wierdest looking plant in the universe

whats more bothersome is a subject of much debate --- whats causing these mutations ????

several years back you never in my experience heard of these freaks, now we are seeing more amd more of it

i just think that as the years go on , and genetic lines continue to be cross bred, in bred, sprayed and drenched with all sorts of growth enhancements, strong sprays and soil additives for insect and disease control,more sprays to promote growth and vigor, etc, etc, then passing these seeds on to hundreds of growers who in turn do there own thing also, has created this condition

i dont think there is one easy answer to this reoccuring problem

dick w

6/17/2005 6:46:10 AM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Dick could it also be that they have always been there? And these plants were just allowed to fizzle out. Then you never heard about them at the weigh offs. With the internet and diaries, we have a new window into growers patches that was never there before.

6/17/2005 9:04:00 AM

Eveleth MN

I agree with Shannon's theory

6/17/2005 9:27:34 AM

Montoursville, PA

Two great responses both with merit. The sport is growing. Our observations and practices are indeed maximus efforts any way one might observe. There are lots of opinions based, on no central control or data base. Most of what we do and believe is best, for a year or two. However if best is for only for a year or then the practice, seed and results are not sustainable. Nature does her own thing. We get to observe both our good and our unfortunate bad practices.

The only general truth I see and hear is the increased use of basic soil building using manure, compost and remineralization. A second truth I think I see is an unknown level, of correction or forgiveness, made possible, by the increased ability, of the patch, with a strong healthy biological base, to adjust following stress created, by nature and ourselves.

The only repeaters, of excellent production seem, to have, a handle, on these basics no matter what their practices may include or exclude.

I would hope that someday someone or some group...possibily some organization would have enough money and profit motive to do, the biological and scientific study, to bring forth some, of these needed answers. Sadly I do not see the organization or profit motive that would eventually maybe help us answer those questions.

6/17/2005 9:38:57 AM

Minnesota([email protected])

I would think longtime A.G. growers, such as pap and others, would have noticed these weird growth patterns if they were present in the past. Any A.G. veterans care to comment? If these mutations are new, or are becoming more common, I was thinking along the same lines as pap. Maybe some chemicals are the cause.
I know it's a stretch to compare humans and A.G.s, but remember that thalidomide was linked to deformities in children. Could some of the patch chemicals be causing deformities in the offspring of A.G.s?
Just a thought.

Doug

6/17/2005 11:22:36 AM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Same chemicals are being used in Commercial Pumpkin patches. I have yet to see a flatviner on a hard stem pumpkin plant. I think it is a recessive gene related to the aggresiveness and weight gains associated with the Atlantic Giants we are raising. I can see if you could compared family trees and pinpointed all pumpkins or squash with flatvines come from the 567.5 Mombert in the back ground. But I have not seen this.

6/17/2005 11:58:08 AM

Western NY

I see the equivalent of flat vines in the summer squash and zuchinni i have grown. I have one ss plant this year that threw double flowers for the first half of the plant. like you said though, i don't remember seeing these types of mutations on field pumpkins. i think AG's may be more closely related to summer squash than field pumpkins.

6/17/2005 1:33:04 PM

Ga.

Maybe its cause more seed are being planted..More seed equals more plants thus more freaks show up..

6/17/2005 1:45:03 PM

No Place Special

I had a flower...dont know if its male or female...LOL! It is tall like a male but also has a pumpkin! Not sure if it had male/ female or both parts inside the flower. I think I have another one just like it somewhere also... maybe ill look closer at it for fun.

6/17/2005 3:40:05 PM

Rhode Island

mike

perhaps you have a "hermafrapumpkin". you know a josephine -joseph
or better yet the dreaded shay-shay-laflame gene(lol)

last year we had a pumpkin develope with no female flower and a stem about one quarter inch long
got sick of looking at the freak and threw it out

also in response to shannons suggestion

i started in 89 and to be very honest i dont recall hearing about ribbon vines,dill rings, freakie shapes, double pumpkins on one stem,etc, until a few years ago

perhaps shannon is correct, what with the computer circulating info more information is passed on first hand

several years ago people experimented with giberlic acid, and god knows what else to increase the size of there fruit

so you never know what long term effect some of these witches brews have passed on

sounds like the making of a good b rated movie
" it came from outa the patch "

6/17/2005 5:22:15 PM

Clinton, Iowa

I have seen Tendrils that turn into vines....seen some grow as long as 4 or 5 feet before I would cut them off....seem some that had flowers showing on them also...never kept them around long enough to open or anything..Generally this would show up...and it is very rare..can only think of 2 plants over th eyears....Later in the growing season..like when those late Tert. vines start shooting up from all over the place

6/17/2005 5:44:14 PM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Since there is no natural selection in AGs mutations do accumulate and chemicals sure help in this respect.

The other reason is inbreeding, which brings out funny/recessive genes, as Shanon said.

I also agree that these abnormalities are linked with aggressiveness of growth. In nature, the growth is kept in more close check, so it stops before the fruit blows, or buds develop into freaks... We want AGs to grow on and on, so we selected against strict growth/development control. This selection, however, can not go on infinitely, if we do not want to outbalance the plants.. well, this is AG genetics already, which is to complicated for me :-)

Btw, flat vines etc are usually not mutations but growth/development abnormalities. They occur because the genetics (because of mutations?) of the plant are more permissive for them to develop.
Jernej

6/17/2005 6:08:38 PM

Grandfield Oklahoma

Now tell me! Just What Would Snoopie say about all this!

Alas The Great Pumpkin is Alive and Well

6/17/2005 7:59:45 PM

Abbotsford, B.C

THat's a good theory about more seeds being grown, plus the fact that we are able to 'see into other growers patches' via Internet, but what I find astounding is that out of six plants I have, at least three have mutations, and the others might have some too, if I looked closer, haven't see any yet, but I haven't scanned every inch of my plant. My theory is that it is probably inbreeding. If you think about it, do you realize what percentage of pumpkins nowadays come from three pumpkins, the 845 Bobier, the 846 Calai, and the 723 Bobier? And the inbreeding is bringing out all of these funny mutations. The chemical theory would be nice, but not all growers have been using odd brews, and even so, unless it were a top plant, it wouldn't be able to have infiltrated into so many different lineages of pumpkins. Are these mutations known to be harmful or not? I am just curious to see what this mutation will do, if I leave it will it harm the plant in any way? I wouldn't think so, but just making sure.

Cameron

6/17/2005 8:07:46 PM

Amherst, WI

Howard Dill developed the Atlantic Giant 21 years ago or so. Haven't they been inbred ever since then?

6/17/2005 11:29:08 PM

valparaiso, in

ive had three plants mutate on me this season so far. i threw two of them out and im letting the third one grow just to see what happens. im no expert but im leaning towards the inbred jed theory.

6/18/2005 2:37:29 AM

Eveleth MN

Could be the good old "Good Vs. Bad" that stores deal with. 1 Person has a bad experiance and EVERYONE hears about it, 100 people have a good experiance and only a few hear about it........... People tend to get mad when something doesn't go right and they want to let the whole world know.

6/18/2005 7:04:51 AM

Long Island,New York

I would imagine there could be many many legitimate reasons listed here....but I personally believe these abnormalities have always been around, just not communicated about so much. From what I'm told it was more "competitive" back when....as in no-one shared their info good or bad. When plants grow in a field they're all basicly inbred...no different than what we do....we just keep track of who pollinates what better. I have seem (fasciated??) stems to dandilions this year and similar flatvine and fusing mutations on many things non-pumpkin...I think its normal. No-one ever saw bacteria until they put it under a microscope either.....but its there everywhere for ever almost....we just put our pumpkin/pumpkin plants under the microscope everyday.

6/18/2005 8:18:04 AM

Jay,florida

Will post photos of my Wallace 1257.50 genetic freak tomorrow,"pumpkin whisperer"diary. the plant started normal with 2-cod leaves but for 2-weeks no true leave followed, then the cod leaves turned till they were side by side then 4-leaves came up at once from the stem, i will let this one grow to see what comes of it.

4/17/2019 1:34:16 PM