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Knopp, Germany

I see our hobby as an evolutionary process. Here are some thoughts that I hope will start an interesting discussion and bouncing of ideas back and forth. Note: I have only been growing AGs for 4 years, but I read everything and anything I can find about our hobby.

-20 years ago we did not document genetics like today.
-10 years ago we bombarded out patches with fertilizers. If an ounce was good, we would put on a gallon, had to be better!
-5 years ago we were still growing 1200 sq ft plants. Today, 400-600 seems to be the norm.
-1 year ago Jack LaRue germinated a seed on 20 April, placed it outside on 25 April, and according to a DVD I watched from the Elk Grove Seminar, only fertilized it once, early in the season, a light spraying of either seaweed or fish not sure which. It weighed 1420 lbs.

If we ignore any dates set for weigh offs, and only concentrate on trying to grow an AG to its maximum potential, here is an idea that I would like to throw out there. Of course, my idea is totally environmentally dependent on cool springs, mild summers, and cool falls. As well as a 90 day window for growing your fruit after it is set.

Is it easier to try and keep a plant alive and thriving in April, so that by mid to late June we have a fruit set? This would allow us to take full advantage of the warmer summer months say 15 June to 15 September.

Or, is it easier to plant on 15 May with a fruit set in early to mid July? With this idea we are looking at 7 July - 7 October for fruit growth.

Remember, we are not worried about any weigh offs, simply growing the biggest fruit we can in our environment.

Thoughts?

4/26/2005 2:17:07 AM

[email protected]

Speaking to the Southern CT/Metro NY area.

If the cool soils of spring can't be artificially warmed, then I'd say the later start would favor the better growth. However since temporary greenhouses & soil heating cables are cost effective realities (in most cases) then extending the front half offers the grower a chance to have a firm fruit set before summer heat starts causing aborts. This is the only valid reason I can think of to start earlier since we only rarely experience a frost before fruit finish growing.

Now that more flexible weigh-off dates are allowed at GPC sites, we will probably start seeing a shift toward interest in genetics that favor a longer steadier growth patern rather than a fast & furious short fruit growth event.

Has anyone ever tracked the growth curve for long slow & never ending? This would be the seed for early start & late finish potential.

4/26/2005 4:53:17 AM

Knopp, Germany

Good input Steve.

I like your idea of "a long steadier growth pattern".

More then just the opportunity to avoid any aborts, what about the difference between fruit growth during the 15 June to 7 July time frame compared to the 15 September to 7 October time frame. Given all being equal, then typically wouldn't a fruit then have longer good weather conditions to grow? Granted you may not get a frost early October, but certainly cooler temps then during June.

Combine that with genetics that favor a longer steadier growth pattern, and we may be able to further maximize our individual environments.

My guess is that environmental conditions effect whether one would have long steady growth more then the genetics would effect this. Could be a combination of both. I need to go back to the AGGC and read some more...LOL

4/26/2005 8:47:27 AM

West Bridgewater /Brockton Ma. USA

Well for what it is worth and understanding that this is my first year for trying to grow AG for size..... I am trying just what you are wondering about early start and going for broke ...If it makes a weight off all the better but I am trying for a personal gold .... I plant for a local farm , (Prizewinner) to supply the local market at Halloween. (See photo gallery :Field of dreams )
Bill G.

4/26/2005 9:18:20 AM

Deer Park, WI

Interesting discussion Owen. My thoughts on this are that Ma Nature has it pretty well figgered out. I've tried the early route, and everytime I do nature readjusts to make all things equal. Our cold ass springs up here will bring plants to a screeching halt. So whether I plant April 15 or May 15, flowers are still opening on July 7th. No matter what I do I cannot get a jump start on pollination, and if they go in late, they catch up enuf to bloom the second week in July. Really the only option I have for extending the season is September protection.

This makes sense logically, as Wisconsin typically experiences it's warmest weather during the second and third week of August. This one-month timeframe happens to coincide with the stage of pumpkin development that is most favorable for pumpkin expansion.

As with all things, pumpkin growing will come full circle and settle into a pattern of simplicity. We do the complicated trials and errors to end up learning that the simplest means to the end is the best. 1400lbs and no fert, 1200 sq ft to 400 sq ft. Its all moving towards a beautiful simplicity.

4/26/2005 9:22:09 AM

Western NY

I checked out the average monthly temperature trends for my area. looks like the average peaks here about the last week in july/ first week in august. would it make more sense to pollinate in the first week of june, so that the fruit growth is just hitting it's stride during the hottest part of the year? this would probably mean a mature fruit early september, but it could be a mature 1500+. Like Steve said, though - it's not going to work here unless the soil is heated up by planting time. it was still snowing here yesterday. we also have to keep in mind that those are only the averages. weather patterns shift, so if it's warmer in late august, you haven't gained anything over a normal pollination. also, it might not be the best idea if you get a heatwave that the plant can't take.

food for thought. for the experimenters out there.

4/26/2005 9:34:32 AM

Western NY

Joe:

http://www.weather.com/activities/other/other/weather/climo-monthly-graph.html?locid=USWI0179

my graph looks almost exactly the same, but a couple degrees lower than you. i'd love to fina a weekly breakdown, though

4/26/2005 9:37:23 AM

Knopp, Germany

I have asked Mike N. to do a query for me over at the AGGC. I will let you know what I find out.

thank you all for your input.

4/26/2005 10:05:29 AM

Key West, FL

Very interesting, I think it could be done. You would just need to heat your hoophouse, and almost 24/7 some days. It would have to be big to allow the plant to grow until June in it. I almost want to try this next year.

4/26/2005 10:29:15 AM

Knopp, Germany

Okay, I have received the data back from Mike. Here is a quick overview of what I received:

I cut off my data here to show only pumpkins at 1000 lbs or more, and that had the data available at the AGGC (Note, please be as specific as possible when submitting to the AGGC!)

-37 AGs 95 days or older
-18 of those 100 days or older
-7 of those 105 days or older

Some of the older ones:
1353.5 Liggett 04, 124 days old
1069.5 Liggett 04, 122 days old
1134 Holland 03, 113 days old
1041.5 Sherwood 04 DMG, 112 days old

Some of the younger ones:
-1432.0 Carlson-Petersen 2004 DMG, 71 days old
-1279.5 Wykcoff 2003, 81 days old
-1268.0 Pugh 2004 EST, 55 days old
-1210.0 Kline 2004 DMG, 81 days old

Some others:
-1446.0 Eaton 2004, 87 days old
-1420.5 LaRue 2004, 95 days old
-1354.0 Checkon 2004, 95 days old
-1229.0 Holland 2004, 100 days old

Thoughts?

4/26/2005 11:27:09 AM

Knopp, Germany

Ben, that is exactly what Jack did I believe, make hoophouses that covered the entire planting are into June.

4/26/2005 11:42:42 AM

Knopp, Germany

I did have one thought, maybe soem of those state fair plants that were started so early should be grown into late September. Instead of having a mid August 900 pounder you migth just end up with a early October World Record.

4/26/2005 12:09:04 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan ([email protected])

Good thread, Owen.

If soil temps could be more thoroughly controlled, a lot of good things might happen...
a) one could plant in early April to have the plant/fruit benefit from the longest sunlight days of the year in June.
b) If one could control nighttime soil temp in August, you could avoid some big temp swings that cause splits, or the temp swings that cause moisture evaporation from the soil and condensation on the leaves & contributes to PM...

I personally think someone could really pack on some extra pounds by extending daylight hours with some full spectrum artificial lighting. I think the plant begins its decline/dieback as a response to the environmental trigger of diminishing daylight.

As an aside...Holy cow! 1268 Pugh was only 55 days old! I'm sure Stan has wondered what might have been if she would have held together for 90 days...

Frank

4/26/2005 12:45:01 PM

Utah

correct me if i'm wrong... but to me, days old from the AGGC means the number of days from pollination to the date it was weighed ... not the number of days the fruit actually grew. I know that is how my pumpkins are listed, last year all but one had stopped growing before they were weighed. The one that was still growing was a late July set.

so my question is ...
how many of these older fruit were growing the whole time ?
I think most fruit don't grow more than 90 days, I know a few do but not many.

Full spectrum lighting is an interesting idea ... I think it would be expensive and quite a task to get a system up ? ???

4/26/2005 1:30:55 PM

Commack, NY

Exactly what i was thinking Gordon. How many of those fruit were actually still growing at the time of harvest. If you could somehow isolate a particular gene that would enable the fruit to continue making appreciable weight gains say 100-135 days after pollination, then you'd have soemthing. Daylight hours, also a good thought. interesting thread.

4/26/2005 1:45:30 PM

Bristol, ME ([email protected])

Andy, try this for your weekly breakdown..

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/er/buf/products/totalrecord.html

4/26/2005 2:16:48 PM

Cheyenne, Wyoming

I am far from an expert on growing pumpkins. My goal is just a 600 pounder this year. With that said, the past several years I have been frozen out at the first part of September, with fruit growing well, between day 35 and 45.

This year, I started almost one month earlier. I planted my seeds on Easter morning (March 27th). The plants are in a hoop house. As most of you know, the hoop houses will raise the temps 40 or 50 degrees while the sun is out.

I have soil temps in the hoop house that are higher now, than they will be in July.

I am also running a red heat lamp and a blue flood light lamp each evening for warmth, and added plant photosynthesis.

I have one plant that is doing exceptionally well. It is already beginning to vine.

I should be able to set a pumpkin during the time of mid June, which will give the pumpkin both the warmest days/nights, as well as the longest time periods of day-light to grow.

Trying to cover 500 Sq. Ft. of plant and run heaters in September is not as easy as setting up a hoop house in April.

Time will tell if this idea is a good one.

Beet

4/26/2005 2:25:36 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

I guess my problem here in NJ is I start to lose leaves to Powdery Mildew..I'm gonna be more aggressive in prevention but the late August heat and humidity kicks in and regardless of what you do it seems to keep coming...I also have late shade over the garden so if I avoid the sun time watering it translate to a wet leaf night..not good..I've always started early planting 1st week of may gonna push off a week and see if I can get a stronger younger plant to see if I can get past this. Also gonna use some early pruning tips I picked up in Niagara this year..Ya see after five years of growing I wasn't cleaning off the stumps which is generally where my PM starts...Thanks Mr. Reynolds!
They will be clean as a whistle this year..Ya pick up a tip every time you talk to someone. Great thread Owen!

4/26/2005 7:02:25 PM

[email protected]

Warmer spring soil??? I'm growing in the floor of our greenhouse again this year. The soil was 70*F the last time I checked so perhaps I should have started the seeds earlier. There is no threat of frost in a heated greenhouse.

The growth curves would be useful for the data Owen got from Mike. But a trend did seem to express itself with respect to certain very fast growing genetics (1097 etc).

Early tahe home points we probably already knew but it never hurts to reconsider:

Slow & steady wins the race.
Create a stress free micro-climate.
Extend the growing season on both ends.
Protect from & plan around high heat during pollination.
Don't *PUSH* the plants.
Unless you're very lucky, control all pests with the least impact on the plants possible.

4/26/2005 9:44:26 PM

Choctaw, OK

I am in the same boat as Joe. Our so called "avg" weather is about the same for our areas. I have always started in late april or early may and it all depends on weather (or time i have, last two years anyways). Most of the time, Joe tends to get slightly warmer high temps during the summer than I do, but I have higher night time temps. Obivously its geographical plus a few others factors. He has grown 1000 lbers and I have not. Alot has to do with how you grow them and that is evident in the outcome over the past few years if we were compared.

I think late growth is much more key than early growth, which i would think is obvious to most. We could get an earlier start if the resources were not hard on the pocket book, but our spring weather wont allow for an early start, so we try to accomodate by september protection as stated by Joe. If you trek about three hours south, maybe a bit more, their growing season (northern illinois, indiana, iowa, etc) is extended probably close to two more weeks than up here. Al Eaton is around our latitude, so growing 1400 lbs is very possible here, but the weather really is different when the UPPER midwest is compared to that of the NE and southern Canada.

4/26/2005 10:38:14 PM

Knopp, Germany

I agree Gordon, ther is no way to know for sure, but we have allexperienced fruit that stopped growing, but was not removed fromthe vine for a week or more, so that may not be relevant.

It is also obvious from the posts from Chuck, Case, and Joe, that we need to understand our own environments to get the most out of them. Early starts for some, late for others, or what ever is "normal" for our areas.

I agree with your thoughts on extended lighting Frank, if we only had the money to invest.....

Steve did a great job of summing up what we really need to remember.

thanks all for your input.

4/27/2005 1:24:25 AM

Key West, FL

Owen, i know what Jack did. But he didn't start his seeds in early april. If one did, and heated the hoophouse, and they grew normally the whole time, then the hoop house would have to be much larger to last till June. I try to keep greenhouses on mine till June also.

4/27/2005 1:47:37 AM

Rhode Island

several of the replies have noted timing the fruits maximum growth cycle to coinside with the regions longest days of sun light

this is someting we planned for since discussing the subject last summer

depending on your region ( we are from new england ) you may need to go in the ground now, with the appropriate heating cable and a black warming light for the colder nights

i would imagine you will need to pollinate between june 20 th to the 25 th to catch this cycle

of course if you got lucky and had a real stud plant then in some cases you can plant at the normal time ( for me its may 5 th ) and still get a jump on the growth cycle

as far as finishing the growth cycle early i dont see this as a problem
if you have a healthy plant anf fruit then the pumpkin can stay hooked up and remain healthy for a long time

dick w

4/27/2005 7:04:24 AM

White Plains, NY

I will be transplanting 3 plants outside today (Apr.27) in their protective shelter. Our last frost is around May l5th. I'm looking to catch the longer daylight hours in the growing curve.

4/27/2005 7:11:22 AM

Deer Park, WI

Hey Andy-

I checked your link on our temperature data. Too bad it doesnt reflect the last 4 growing seasons. Pretty much knock off 10 degrees on those highs and lows for May-June. I dont remember a single day last may that topped 70. Spent lotsa time playin in the forties...for highs.

4/27/2005 12:23:53 PM