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The Garden State

I have searched over this site and found several instances of growers adding corn meal to the patch and other growers adding dried molasses. I am having a hard time finding corn meal in my area in bulk quanities so I was wondering is one more beneficial then the other or am I okay by just adding molasses?

3/30/2005 10:11:57 PM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

I would add a question: Is molasses bought in the grocery store just as good as the agricultural grade stuff? I don't think I need very much of it (especially once it's diluted). And, I live right accross the road from a grocery store. So, if it does the job, I'd like to get away with it.

3/30/2005 10:36:19 PM

Montoursville, PA

Dried molasses is OK but it is not near as good as Black Strap Molasses.

Dried molasses is not dried molasses! It is molasses added to or placed on grain chaff. By vollume there is very little molasses in or on this product.

Just adding molasses is fine. It is food for your bacteria. It is about as good a biological food as money can buy.

Corn meal helps your soil grow your plants, in fact, a bit more resistant to the pathegons. It carrys with it about one percent nitrogen. It also feeds your worms which produce casts that will also support the good fungi and help plants resist pathogens.

My patch is only 1000 sq. ft. The twenty pounds of human food quality corn meal I use costs me eight or nine bucks a year for twenty pounds.

3/30/2005 10:47:04 PM

Phoenix, AZ

Since we are talking molasses....

Why do we use it? Why not just used refined table sugar? Is there a reason other than cost. You know in my area of the world, molasses in bulk is unavailable.

3/30/2005 10:51:14 PM

Puyallup, WA

One can buy 5 gallons of cattle grade for $11. If you have a small patch, perhaps a quart would be adequate.
I've seen some mighty small patches on this site!
The Agro-K recommended dilution rate is 4 oz. to a gallon of water. However, many growers add molasses throughout the growing season.

3/30/2005 10:52:11 PM

Montoursville, PA

I'm reasonably sure Canada has animal feed mills that make cattle feed. They all need and use Black Strap Molasses.

Store molasses is OK but a 1000 sq. ft. patch and easily use up two or three gallons. Look for Brier Rabbit brand.

Black Strap Molasses is basically Carbs. with a lot of other good stuff going along in cattle grade some of which is processed out of human grade.

Here in the states our sporting goods stores have one in gallon size used to attract deer and bear.

3/30/2005 10:57:10 PM

Montoursville, PA

Ben.........I did a thing here on site about Black Strap Molasses and what it contains. White sugar would not be an equal in anything but carbs. The makers take all the good stuff out of that pretty white sugar.

3/30/2005 11:03:53 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

I just go to the local feed mill down the road and buy three-one hundred pound bags of corn meal and spread it over my whole patch. Cost a little under $30.00 for three bags

3/30/2005 11:40:54 PM

Taber, Alberta

Doc's right, just go through your phone book and look for a feed mill. I'm picking mine up tomorrow. They were happy to fill as many buckets of the stuff as I wanted and it's dirt cheap compared to the same stuff I got from the bulk food store last year. They just wanted me to give them a day or 2 to get around to it because molasses can be a bit messy when it comes to filling buckets. I'm in a small town and everyone is getting to know the crazy pumpkin guy who asks for strange stuff.
Alan

3/31/2005 12:09:01 AM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

I'm trying to avoid the "crazy pumpkin guy" label. I'm sure it'll happen eventually. It already has within my family. But, if the name is gonna stick, it should at least wait until I've grown my first pumpkin. :-)

So, I think I'll just be going to the store this time. It's good to know that it is sold at sports stores. A new Bass Pro (the first one in Canada, I think) recently opened just North of me. For as small of a patch as I have, a gallon should do me fine.

3/31/2005 1:46:53 AM

Hobbiton New Zealand

No way crazy pumpkin title is a good thing you just walk into any place that sells something you want for the pumpkins tell what you are doing they look at you a bit strange and give it to you are a cheaper price if not free.
I got 6 ton of chicken manure last year delivered and spread for free last year and the owner rang me after he saw the photos in the paper and said when do I want some more. CRAZY PUMPKIN GUY title is a good thing.

3/31/2005 3:08:47 AM

The Garden State

Docgipe,

Considering that I am looking at a outside planting date of May 1, is it too late to add corn meal to the patch?

3/31/2005 5:43:09 AM

Taber, Alberta

Did I imply that I didn't like the title "Crazy Pumpkin Guy"? I'm so sorry. I LIVE for the title of "Crazy Pumpkin Guy" in town! LOL

3/31/2005 10:03:02 AM

Montoursville, PA

You may apply corn meal anytime.

3/31/2005 10:08:32 AM

Thornhill, Ontario, Canada

I don't have a problem with the title "crazy pumpkin guy." But, if I am going to have it, I want to have earned it first. :-)

3/31/2005 10:15:00 AM

Dillsburg, PA

Following Doc's advice I went to my local co-op and they gave me 20 pounds of corn meal for free. Also they had BSM that only cost $5. As stated above look for farm feed places as some of this stuff is hard to find at nurserys.

3/31/2005 10:21:40 AM

Saegertown Pa.

If the molasses helps feed the beneficial microbes wouldn't it also feed the none beneficial ones we don't want?

3/31/2005 11:54:45 AM

Follansbee, Wv

Quinn, according to many articles I have read, there is the possibility of breeding E. Coli and Salmonella <sp?> in compost teas composed of manure based compost when molasses is added. There are measures that can be taken to reduce the risk of contamination, such as well aerated tea that has been brewed for 72 hours or more, among others.
I have read nothing about dangerous microbe populations in garden soil being traced to molasses added to the soil. The key factor is manure based compost. If you have no manure, or the manure is well aged to the point it resembles dark earth and nothing more, there should be no problems with undesired microbes.

3/31/2005 1:08:52 PM

Montoursville, PA

Quinn.............yes it will feed all the critters. In all instances nature provides her own ballances by having the good both bacterial and fungal be stronger than the bad guys. Both the good and the bad exist in all soils. One they outeat the bad guys and they will given the opportunity out occupy space on the surface of the plant.
When occupancy is good the population will even grow onto the newly emerging leaf surface and continue building resistance to the pathegons. This is one of the reasons molasses used in foliar feeding is important.

This really works better when aerobic teas are also applied to the plant and leaf surface. Countering the effect of bacterial and fungal help is our use of insecticides and fungicides. This is why many writers indicate a withdrawal program from some of the harsher chemicals is often used. A wave of the magic wand seldom gets the job done without a full understanding of biological presence and use on the plants and in the soil. So we learn to do this if we really want to...at least to some degree better than we may have practiced in the past.

In the pumpkin patch there may never be a total withdrawal. One might expect however to immediately use less and perhaps less harsh chemicals, to fight the war. Or one might fail and nuke the ballance. I know of no one growing without the use, of some chemicals, to fight insects and fungi diseases.

3/31/2005 2:20:34 PM

White Bear Lake, Minnesota

Pumpkinbrat

when you bought your corn meal at the local feed mill, did you make sure it wasn't corn gluten meal. which is used to control weeds. <<< A word of caution. >>>

I pick my corn meal up at a local food co-op.

3/31/2005 9:58:24 PM

Ohio

thanks for that warning Grandpap, that sounds like something I would do,LOL
Brooks

4/1/2005 4:51:40 AM

Hanover,Ontario,Canada

Why the problem with corn gluten meal? You have transplanted your already germinated plant into the patch. The corn gluten meal only stops weed seeds or other seeds from germinating............

4/1/2005 8:45:22 AM

Hanover,Ontario,Canada

Corn gluten meal has the right protein to stop weed seeds from germinating while providing essential nutrients to make plants grow. See http:///www.gluten.iastate.edu/daily/html
An article about the discoverer Dr. Nick Christians

4/1/2005 9:01:19 AM

Circleville Ohio USA

Aphids are a problem in my area would molasis during the season encourage them to find my patch?

4/1/2005 9:54:58 AM

southern MN

Corn gluten meal does in some cases prevent some weed seeds from germinating but it mainly has a growth regulating effect on root systems and that is why there is weed control (no root system = no survival). I would hate to put something on the ground that would inhibit root growth. I don't know if it would effect the main root system on a transplanted AG but what effect would it have on the all the secondary roots we are trying to establish by bury vines

4/1/2005 10:42:07 AM

Montoursville, PA

Corn Gluten Meal works, by attacking, the very tips, of tender new hair root growth starting with with the first out, of the seed.

I have consulted with several sellers, of corn gluten stating that the nature, of forever growing, and reaching out, of the hair roots right up, to the day the last ounce, of growth takes place. All sellers went from maybe not to use it to silent likely because they really do not know.

My decision not to use corn gluten was because it is a long term slow release effective non selective natural herbicide.
It does not flush out of the soil with spring rains. It does not go away.

My question is even more pointed if the natural or innoculated Mycorrhizae picked it up and delivered it, to the pumpkin roots because, of the natural nitrogen also, in corn gluton. Would it not be delivering the herbicide effect, to the most tender part, of the pumpkin root developing parts?

At the very least I suggest that corn gluton would bring stess into play where we want it the least. I doubt it would do anything we could see because of the vigor in the pumpkin overall. The hidden stress concerns me and is why I elect, to not use corn gluton.

Back to basics. There are much safer ways, to prevent or reduce weeds. The most common one is called a hoe. A growing interest is the use, of mulches, to help prevent weeds while delivering other good factors, to the patch as the mulch decomposes and adds humus.

4/1/2005 10:56:24 AM

Hanover,Ontario,Canada

You guys are wrong because it provides nutrients for a healthy lawn with good root systems. How come lawn grass roots avoid getting nuked but actually become more healthy and flourish? There is something missing here or I am barking up the wrong tree. I have Steve jepson to respond.

4/1/2005 4:44:43 PM

Follansbee, Wv

CGM only works at the time of germination. Once germination has occured, and plant growth begins, CGM has no effect on plant roots. That's what makes it such a great weed and feed product.

Everything you ever wanted to know about Corn Gluten Meal:

http://www.gluten.iastate.edu/

4/1/2005 5:42:35 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

I hope your right Dave. I've got a big bag of it here that I won as a door prize a couple years back at the Niagara seminar. I've been tempted to use it, but wasn't sure. I need to go over that article. Thanks for the info.

Phil

4/1/2005 6:58:52 PM

[email protected]

Dr. Nich Christians has proven time & again that Gluten only affects emerging root hairs of monocots. Started cucurbita is both emerged & dicot. Therefore corn gluten has no impact on cucurbits.

4/1/2005 7:52:20 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Thanks, Steve. It looks like the bag will be put in the patch this spring afterall. Good thing to because I was getting tired of tripping over it.

Phil

4/2/2005 7:16:04 AM

Montoursville, PA

Therefore one must still consider cost and effectiveness. Over the years I have used corn gluton. I find it very expensive for a result that is less than desirable.

Of course if one wished to spend the bucks and still have to hoe and or mulch I guess that pretty much comes down to experience and decision.

One of the reasons it may be less than desirable is the innoculation of Mycorrhizae. The Mycorrhizae may do just the opposite, of my stated suspect. It may be hosted by some of the weeds and therfore unassessable, to the effect, of corn gluton. Therefore those weeds would do better just like the pumpkins.....for the same reasons. This assumes that the Mycorrhize products, in question is one ,of the eight to fifteen known Mycorrhizae,of multi types, included, in one product.

....This or these factors may then be why corn gluton has been less than desirable, in practical, use for me. Incidently it is not a wonder product, on the yard either.
Grass grown as suggested three or four inches high will prevent more weeds than corn gluton or any other herbicide.

4/2/2005 7:43:24 AM