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Minnesota([email protected])

I've seen hints from a couple of growers here at BP.com, that they think that the male pollinator will somehow affect the performance of the female pumpkin it pollinated.
Such as affect it's size potential, heaviness, etc.
The male pollinator will only affect the seed genetics, and will have no bearing on the final outcome of the fruit it pollinated. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any way.

For instance:
845 Bobier X 1260 Weir
845 Bobier X 810 Dill
If you were going to pollinate a female blossom of the 845, with either the 1260, or the 810, it wouldn't make any difference to the performance of the 845 pumpkin you pollinated(assuming the same level of pollination). It will only affect the genetics of the seeds, and the affect of the male pollinator will whow up when the seeds are planted(in its offspring).

Lack of proper(full) pollination, may affect the shape of the fruit, and maybe the ultimate size. I don't know if there are instances where pollen from some genetics is more acceptable to the female of another genetic, or not.

Doug

1/18/2005 3:56:46 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

Instead of "whow up", I meant "show up"

1/18/2005 3:58:41 PM

Webster, NY

I agree Doug, pollen is pollen. You worry about it if you want something specific next year. It will have no bearing on what happens this year.

Dave

1/18/2005 4:58:48 PM

C N Y

as far as i know, you are correct. the SEEDS from a given cross are the first indicators of a new genetic crossing.
you can "go in" with two plants from white seeds and come out with beige, wispy-flaky-pock-marked little numbers for seeds in the offspring......but the fruit itself will not be affected in any way by the male pollen's origin.
YES, there are instances where SOME females will abort no matter what when pollinated by a particular pollen from another AG. i read recently somebody just self-pollinated something when the intended cross just would not take. hope i helped--------eric

1/18/2005 6:27:06 PM

White Plains, NY

I'm having difficulty with this concept. How is it that the male pollen provides "Nothing" to the soon to be growing fruit? The seeds produced from the growing fruit will provide genetics from the male "only" in the following year(s)? I'm thinking of the sperm and egg action as to its offspring. Help please.

1/19/2005 9:19:16 AM

Halifax, Nova Scotia

I had to explain this to my wife the other day, Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

When a man and woman have "relations" (It's a family site), and the man impregnates the woman, the woman will have a child that is made up of equal parts of the man and the woman however, the genes of the woman do not change in the process. Think of the little pumpkin at the base of the female flower as the woman, the male flower as the man. That pumpkin has already got all of it's genetics set, regardless of what pollen is added to the flower. When children (seeds) are born a little while later, they will carry the genes from the mother and father.

Don't know if this cleared it up for you or not, but my wife gets it now.

1/19/2005 9:26:32 AM

[email protected]

Actually the Missus is now even more confused. The Human progeny will probably resemble both of it's parents & carry both of their genes.

But the pumpkin will only resemble on the outside, the genetic set created by it's mothers parents. Only it's own progeny will resemble the genetic code of both of it's parents.

1/19/2005 9:41:17 AM

[email protected]

And even then only to the extent that dominant & recessive genes are expressed.

1/19/2005 9:42:22 AM

[email protected]

And generally more of hers than his but this sexist argument has raged for years & us men have a bit of a problem accepting this reality.

1/19/2005 9:44:11 AM

Cologne / Germany

generally...but many times if you compare children to their parents, some are definetely more related to father (expression, habits, character) than to the mother. Or reverse. Much is influenced by education, but not everything.
In nature the female part is always looking for a strong male part to "guarantee best results". The male part however will also do everything to find the best female part to reproduce.
That´s why we won´t cross a 845 Bobier with some unknown store bought 100+ AG seed, right?

1/19/2005 10:06:37 AM

White Plains, NY

Well that's as clear as mud. I guess I'm looking for the first part. Is this true, the male pollen provides "NO" genetics in growing the pumpkin that it pollinates (forget the seeds)?

NSTransplant - Agreed the woman's genetics do not change but the child will have the genetics of both parents. The little pumpkin(egg)at the base of the female flower is waiting to be fertized, right? During fertization from the male pollen how can it be that no genetics are passed on to the baby pumpkin to be?

It must be Winter.

1/19/2005 6:12:21 PM

Itzetown City

Let me tell you from the birds and the bees..... ;-)
SCNR

1/19/2005 7:29:53 PM

[email protected]

Jim,

The male pollen only impacts the seeds in the fruit. So perhaps a white seed could occur rather than a tan one. But the shell, pulp & rind are all the mothers creation all on her own.

1/19/2005 7:37:42 PM

Leamington, Ont.

Now you guys got me thinking!

I am under the impression that the male pollen only effects the seeds inside of the growing pumpkin, which sets the genetic code for the seeds with both the female and male genetics combined.
Now, I'm thinking that, if each seed has it's own genetic code, how come a few pumpkins growing on 1 plant can be so visually different?
Is it possible that the male pollen from different flowers/plant we are using to pollinate, are directly effecting growing pumpkins?
If the code was already set in the seed wouldn't all the pumpkins be the same shape, color, etc...?

Has anyone grown a plant that produced an orange and anything other than...

1/19/2005 7:39:12 PM

[email protected]

Different fruit on the same plant often do *look* different. Heck we had a cutting this year with 6-8" straight stems on both fruit that we set on it. Yet the year before all the fruit had curved 3-5" stems.

Environment & luck still play a role in physical appearence. But the genetic code still dictates the range of deviation & which environmental triggers cause which results.

1/19/2005 8:54:48 PM

Oakland, CA, USA

Just to add my $.02... The human analogy is confusing because our growth and development is totally different than plants, but to reduce it to the most direct level: the unfertilized seeds are the eggs and the pollen are the sperm. The pumpkin and its guts are the uterus and the placenta, respectively. Sperm doesn't effect the uterus at the genetic level, it causes a pregnancy and all the changes that come with it, but those were inherent in the mother's genetics from her own conception. Same story with pollen: it completes the seed and gets it growing, but doesn't change the pumpkin, other than in as much as the pumpkin reacts to the presence of viable or non-viable seeds.

Why can two pumpkins on the same plant look different? Ask any mother of two or more children if all her pregnancies were the same and if her body reacted exactly the same way each time to a baby in the womb. We are really keyed in on pumpkin size, shape and color of pumpkins, but these are really only three of thousands (or millions!) of variable traits in each pumpkin, most of which we never see and aren't really interested in (like internal structure, chemistry, % water content, hormone levels, etc.), and in fact, the color, shape and size are largely dependent on these unseen variables. Not all leaves on a plant look the same, not all secondaries behave the same way, and my left foot is slightly longer than my right one, so go figure? -Erin.

1/19/2005 9:40:46 PM

Eugene,OR

Basically a pumpkin is an ovary whose sole purpose is to protect the seeds which are forming within it. The seeds are the next generation or the "offspring"; the pumpkin itself is not the offspring. If a pumpkin could think and have a conversation with itself, its line of thought would probably be "reproduce and create a safe environment for my seeds to grow in so they can carry on our species' existance for another generation." If you can just teach your plants to have other thoughts like "grow thicker walls" or "keep stringing together the 20+ pound growth days for another week" or even "1500, 1500, 1500" then your name is probably Al Eaton, Jack Larue, or Steve Daletas.

1/19/2005 10:42:59 PM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

I agree with azazel,.. growth of the pumpkin is dependent on (viable) seeds. So, if the seeds are different they might differently influence the growth.. let’s say that they produce different amounts of hormones. However, in my opinion, this influence is probably close to none.
On the second thought..??

1/20/2005 3:08:50 AM

Itzetown City

I´m not an expert like Welty or Joze but I guess (or believe) that the phytoplasma of the pollen have some phytohormons that influence the growth of the pumpkin where the seed is in. In all cases there must be given a sign "Hey we are polinated and now get to grow!" ( unpollinated pumpkins in most cases dont grow and aborts) Is there or could there be any different in that sign that causes different growth?
Any experts or experiments?

1/20/2005 5:13:12 AM

Itzetown City

For an example, would the pollen of a 1026 Holland influence the growth of a pumpkin more than the pollen of the 582?
And for all those who think, that the mother would not influence by the sperm, how about bloot group incompatibility?

1/20/2005 5:28:42 AM

[email protected]

The hormones that regulate & influence seed formation do also influence fruit growth. Probably not in a way that is determined to a large extent by the male pollinator though. I have a theory that parthenocarpic (seedless) pumpkins might weigh heavy for their genetics. Indeed I would like to induce the parthenocarpic condition with abscisic acid on the open female rather than triggering fruit growth with conventional pollination.

For examples why think about the 1131 Checkon vs all the rest of the Lloyd/Mettler crosses. Could the seedless condition have caused the increased fruit weight?

1/20/2005 5:42:34 AM

Cologne / Germany

to lighten this up...for pumpkins we can use genetic databases and official results to compare the results from different crosses. At least we put everything into statistic.
In human reality Mrs. Tryout would have to "meet" many Mr. Goodcross to prove some comparable results for the records :)

1/20/2005 9:05:30 AM

White Plains, NY

A new day. Thanks all for the assist on understanding this process, I was hung up on the pumpkin. I think I got it. Thanks Azazel, Tremor(Steve), Vineman and all.

When one views the pumpkin (forget the seeds) being the growing medium (only) like the uterous and placenta it becomes clear. The baby (seeds) to be "born" have received the genetics from the cross.

Did this discussion help anyone else? Now back to the chicken and the egg.

Thanks all!

1/20/2005 9:21:54 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Boehnke, this is off the topic, but the term *phytoplasma* that you used refers to bacteria, in fact the smallest known cellular organisms, which live in the sieve tubes (phloem) of plants. I would not be so fussy but I worked on phytoplasmas for my PhD.

1/20/2005 10:09:43 AM

Long Island,New York

Capt....the wife is the female flower, her belly is the pumpkin. You are the male flower....she gets pollinated and the baby (seed) inside grows....the belly(the pkn) is all her...even though the 40 lbs she puts on in the belly may appear to be taking on your characteristics(just kidding) it is all her and don't let he believe otherwise.

1/20/2005 10:14:29 AM

Cologne / Germany

In human biology the male part at first determines the gender of the future child - not too shabby :)
Unfortunately most other genetic studies deal with certain hereditary diseases influenced or caused by the male part.

If we call color, thick pumpkin walls or other traits we´d like to see on pumpkins a hereditary disease, so it could be caused by the male part. Don Langevin said he crossed the 869 Calais with the 885 Hampton to add wall thickness. I assume the man knows what he´s talking about.
There are other good studies about the genetical inheritance of color concerning cats that prove the influence from both parts, female and male.
At least it was Gregor Mendel, one of the pioneers of modern genetic science, who did the first observations arond 1860 - with peas :)

1/20/2005 4:26:29 PM

Cologne / Germany

forgot something pretty important - even if the female is likely to carry the hereditary dispositions for almost all significant traits most of the time, the male part is the "genetic trigger" to make it happen (or not).

1/20/2005 5:34:35 PM