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Pocatello ([email protected])

I sent out a number of seeds from my 468 Warren 04 (1005
Mombert X Self). More recently, I've done some germination
tests, and, well, that seed stock doesn't look good at all.

I was just trying to perfect my technique, and look what
happened!

In each case, I'm using my "heated dome" which always gives
me a good success rate:

Test 1: Tried germinating 4 seeds from the 468 stock. All
germinated, but were very weak. They could not shed their
seed coats. VERY LITTLE root growth.

Test 2: I pulled 10 random seeds from the seed stock, filed
down the edges and pry'ed them open with my fingers. Of
these ten, 3 appeared to have fully developed "seed meat"
(don't know the technical term), 3 had half developed seed
meat, and 4 were completely empty! There was no seed inside
the shell! (And the outer appearance was identical.)

Test 3: Tried germinating two more seeds. No germination at
all!

Test 4: After putting the seeds in the freezer for a week or
two, I again tried to germinate 4 seeds. After 5 days, no
germination on any seed! I took them out and pryed them
apart. Each of these had fully developed innards, but when
I touched it with my finger it had the consistency of
fresh toothpaste! Rotten!

I then tried germinating some other seeds from other
growers. This was great! No problems!

So, I don't know why... but in the unlikely event that you
were planning to use these, make sure you have a backup plan!

Regards, Cliff

1/4/2005 12:57:39 PM

Atlanta, Georgia

Hey Cliff!
Sorry to hear about your tough germination problem and it's about the same as with my 459White04 seeds. They are rotting on me.

I must say two things.....
First of all I had problems germinating my 497White03 seeds last year but have 100% germination with them this year. Maybe some seeds need time....

...and also, don't you squeeze each of your seeds a bit before sending them out? This can usually help you determine whether or not the seed is full or empty.

Best regards pal and happy new year!
Michel

1/4/2005 1:47:24 PM

Puyallup, WA

Most growers simply drop each seed on a hard surface. If the seed is good, it gives of a thud-like sound. If it is hollow and empty, it sounds sort of "tinny" and hollow! Attentive growers ought to test each seed this way before sending them out.

1/4/2005 2:57:36 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I will need to do those things you mention... I had been going
on "appearance". If the seed was white-tipped, I tend to
assume that it's empty or at least not full, so I throw those
out...

1/4/2005 3:24:14 PM

Long Island,New York

Cliff, Cliff, Cliff....thank God Bill Bobier doesn't subscribe to your method......

1/4/2005 4:00:08 PM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

lol, G! good one!

1/4/2005 4:06:46 PM

Cologne / Germany

I´m just testing a bunch of strange looking or sounding seeds to see what to get from such stuff...heard from people putting seeds to the compost just because there was a crack in the shell :)

1/4/2005 5:27:15 PM

Joliet, IL

i save all the seeds that pass the drop test. then i
separate into three groups. 1. perfect appearance seeds.
2. those with hairline cracks or minor white tips or chips.
and 3. those ugly ones with deep surface cracks or more
than 1/4 white tips. i have done test germinations by
randomly choosing seeds from each three groups and tested
their viability to find seeds from goup 1 and 2 are usually
fine and from group 3 the percentages of germination and
healthy seedlings dropped to about 75% success.

there are some seeds that if dropped at several
different angles they will sometimes sound hollowish. i
have snapped many slightly hollowish sounding seeds to find
they were fine and just had a little more space between the
clear sack and outer coat towards the tip so be careful.
it is easy to be fooled, but after making the mistake a
couple (or 20) times, i got the hang of knowing a true
hollow empty and one just a little off key but likely good.
those unsure ones also go into my group 3.

the distributed seeds i send out are two pretty ones
from the the first group for each cross with hopes of
2 healthy germinations for all growers. if the seeds are
limited due to the number produced, i will send out one
seed from the first group and one from the second.

the third group of seeds i save for myself and
label "shadey" meaning they are for last resort if the
seed becomes a "hot" seed in the future and the numbers run
low after awhile. this maybe wishful thinking as to
me having a hot seed cross in the future, but with the
story of the 723's seeds, even those doubtful seeds
look good if you can get them to germinate later on.

1/4/2005 5:54:08 PM

C N Y

seeds that are "good" physically will have a "ceramic"
sort of sound to them when they are handled amongst each other..so if you have about five of them in your hand
and just let them roll around in it, you would swear they sound like dice (or "die") or little stones, instead of pumpkin seeds.
similar to if you ever get a coin in a bunch of change that is a relic, made out of pure silver or whatever, it sounds differently and is easy to pick-out from the rest.

a seed that is not entirely full will have a "papery" sound to it---if you hold the pointed tip of the seed between the fingers of one hand and gently "twiddle" the rounded end with your other first finger and compare it to the
sound of a few other seeds of known fullness, maybe even a different seed stock entirely, a few times, you will become increasingly aware of the difference between full and not-full seeds.
i never use the drop-on-a-table method; i always have to get up to go pick the thing up off the floor!
and i don' think it is entirely reliable, either.

this may sound strange, but it's the weigh that works for me: if you grab one of your ear lobes and squeeze it hard enough that it jussssst starts to hurt, that is how hard you can safely squeeze an AG seed to see if it is full or not. good thing for the seeds if you are
extra-sensitive! lol!

a genuinely full seed should feel like perhaps, and i do not have a good example, a Chiclet piece of gum, or perhaps a small almond; hard, unyielding, uniform from tip to tip, and ceramic-sounding, never "papery".

1/4/2005 6:19:07 PM

C N Y

the only other weigh to check a seed very well is to shine a laser pointer through it. you would do this under a desk or table in the shadow of a desk or table and starting from the radicle, pointed tip, drag the pointer to the other end, paying attention to how much light is getting through the seed. BEWARE! sometimes the seed material,
or SEED MEAT, lol, is very light in color, and CAN be misleading by allowing a lot of laser light to get through.
NEVER break open another grower's seed to check it based on any of these methods i am detailing! it is up to you, though----AND, do NOT ever shine the laser pointer into or even near you eyes; you could damage your retina(s).
those are in your eyes.
imagine telling the surgeon "yeah, i was just checking a pumpkin seed, and 'whoops'!!
ohhhh, tooo sad!! lol

last on the list is this;
if a seed is obviously less than about 2/3 full, just make a note of it on the seed packet, and it goes without saying that you will probably plant the fullest seed(s) in general anyway. THEY ARE ALL equally viable seeds up to a point, and should not be disposed of if there is a reasonable amount of SEED MEAT in the shell, which, by the weigh, is usually fully-developed BEFORE the SEED MEAT is actually "installed" by Mother Nature-----
well, happy seed checking----eric

1/4/2005 6:19:18 PM

Mn

Cliff,

Sounds like thier might be a magniesium defficency in your patch. That will cause low seed countand does affect the vitallity of seeds. Get your soil tested and see if their is a magniesium defficency. I believe you can get magnesium from epson salt. But this will raise your salts.

1/4/2005 9:20:00 PM

[email protected]

I'd still try germinating again. Place some other seeds next to these at the same time & see what they do. Store bought Pepo seeds make good test subjects.

Too wet, dry, cold or hot will all ruin the result. If fresh store bought Pepo seeds fail right along side your 468s then the problem might lie elsewhere. If they germinate then that's another story.

1/4/2005 9:39:48 PM

[email protected]

After reading the rest of the posts:

Like G says, some of the finest seeds in the world have white tips. The enclosed embryo developes before the seed coat. If there's a partial coat, a properly developed embryo is that much more likely to assimilate moisture & germinate.

My 8 year old son can "drop test" seeds with alarming accuracy. He's never handed me a seed that failed to germinate. He might possess some higher form of my dowsing ability (I can only find buried pipes so far).

Do another germination test on dropped seeds. Make sure to use *bottom heat* where the seed is kept *barely* moist at a constant 85 degrees F.

It sounds like the seeds were outside their ideal temperature range & too wet.

1/5/2005 8:03:40 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I knew there would be a lot of "points" made... here to respond...

Only about 10 of 500 seeds were white tipped. So I didn't
consider it an issue either way.

I counted out 500, so not a low seed count.

It's not a matter of not enough heat, or germination technique.
This is how I've done it for years, and I also ran a "control"
group with other seeds and they came out fine. I was very
careful to control the temperature and moisture.

Even the "full" seeds fail to germinate properly. This is
a key point I just want to leave with anyone I sent the
seed. The last test I did... all four seeds were full and
all four failed to germinate, in fact they were rotten.

The empty ones, well, this is the first I've heard of a
drop test... live and learn. Thanks.

1/5/2005 10:42:35 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Responding to the soil question... I did have a problem last
year with too much fresh manure. All July, I had trouble with
aborts and slow growing fruit.

I do not have magnesium deficiency... at least, in my area it
is a given that we AVOID epsom salt exactly because of this.
But since my soil was out-of-wack I'm not sure what to think.
Someone made the point to me that my poor performance in July
could really be linked to the high nitrate situation. Maybe
this problem is stored in the seed? I don't know.

1/5/2005 10:49:47 AM

Mn

I know too much magnesium can impeed the uptake of other nutriunts. So that might also affect your seeds.

1/5/2005 8:32:23 PM

Oakland, CA, USA

Just a little recognition of a good deed: I asked Cliff for some of his seeds before he had tested them, but when he found that they were having problems, he sent me a bunch of other really good seed, including some crosses with big-name plants. It was way more than I expected and certainly more than common courtesy required, so I thought I'd put the word out on a good guy. No good deed should go unrecognized, since they never seem to go unpunished! Thanks again Cliff. -Erin.

1/6/2005 12:54:14 AM