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Joliet, IL

....that is the question.

just wondering who does it, who does not, and why
for either stance.

i am thinking about trying it on 2 plants this year,
but it is very hard for me to get up the nerve to do it.
i said the same thing last year but then whimped out and
left all secondaries on.

12/21/2004 9:23:18 PM

Whidbey Island

I pruned every third one on each side and laid down a plank where these secondaries would have been. This gave me good access to the main vine up and down its length and still kept enough leaves to keep the vine stable in high winds.

12/21/2004 10:07:01 PM

Brillion Wisconsin

I hear ya shazzy! Its hard to hack off those healthy looking secondary vines. Especially when your trying to get your plant to grow big and healthy. I never tried this technique but I'm seriously thinking about radically changing my game plan for 2005 and trimming every other secondary has crossed my mind.

From what I've learned about cutting off every other secondary it provides better air circiulation, easier access to the main vine for maintenance and larger leaf size. There has been some respectable if not awesome weights coming from growers who follow this practice.

I guess the real question has to do with square feet of plant? Would one still trim every other secondary if they were growing in 400 sqft. vs 1200 sqft? Does even it matter?

12/21/2004 10:32:32 PM

Taber, Alberta

If I cut off every second secondary, and this results in larger leaf size, what happens when the winds starts blowing like it always does for me in my area? I pruned every fourth or fifth just for access to the main. We don't usually get all of the diseases they get down east, but ventilation is always a good thing.

12/21/2004 10:39:15 PM

No Place Special

I have given SERIOUS thought to pruning every other secondary. Why not...... it would be soooo much easier? I havent tried it and doubt I will. I think that with missing every other secondary the wind would do way to much damage. The closer vines and leaves can help hold each other up. With the success I had this yr I dont plan to change much next year.

12/21/2004 11:10:11 PM

Northeast

Wont the leaves be less tall with more room to grow and therefore less wind damge?

12/21/2004 11:37:18 PM

Atlanta, Georgia

I would also assume it depends again on the size of the plant. I have twice damaged a lot of the foliage on
a plant using chemical fertilizer and one time with
a too strong dose of liquid Calcium and since the plant
was so perfectly pruned all the tertiaries I ended up
with no leaves. I'm going to start leaving just a few
tertiaries from now on just to ensure that there's a place
for new leaves to sprout from just in case of an accident.

Sorry this doesn't help with the original question!

12/22/2004 1:51:28 AM

Key West, FL

I do every 3rd

12/22/2004 3:43:52 AM

Cologne / Germany

Depending on your plant it might take some time before you see strong growing secondaries everywhere along the main. In that case early pruning might leave you with a pretty "thin" plant later.
I counted 8-10 secondaries on each side from the stump to the 13 ft main vine keeper fruit this year so I was glad not having pruned anything there.

12/22/2004 5:39:25 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

I pinched off every other secondary just when they showed up. This way you do NO damage to the plant and the other secondary starts faster. I guess it pays off...

12/22/2004 5:49:47 AM

Utah

I cut off some them this year. On the inside curves of mains- ie Stelts 90°, and other places where it seemed like the spacing between secondaries was short.
I think it depends on the layout of the plant and how it grows. Last Sept after the patch had completely filled in I remember thinking that my patch seemed really crowded and that I could have pruned out a lot more secondaries.

Typically each leaf is approximately 20-30 inches in diameter and they grow out from each side of the vine. (with some over lap) But even with over lap, a spacing of 40-50 inches between secondaries in not unreasonable at all.
Still I agree with a lot of you who have said that it is hard to prune them. I don't know what I'll do next year.

12/22/2004 9:10:47 AM

Deer Park, WI

Hi folks-

I believe many of the HH across the US trim everyother secondary. I picked up this technique two years ago. As a result, i got 1056 1016 and 905 to show for it. I do believe that pruning method helped me acheived those goals.

Deano- yes the method applies to 400sq ft. plants. This year's 1016 was a little over 500 sq ft. Every other secondary was pinched from the crown to the tip.

As was mentioned earlier, you pinch off the vine before it develops. I take them off when they are the size of your thumb or so.

If you have your vines buried like every good grower should, then wind isnt a problem, as far as vine rolling goes. Yes, the larger leaves take a bit more of a beating, but the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Yes, chopping off a mini-secondary when the plant just starts vining is a hard pill to swallow, but by the end of the season you will be thanking yourself. Because you've essentially cut the amount of vine burying, leaf spraying, and tertiary pruning in half. This is a HUGE consideration for someone under time constraints or a large number of plants.

12/22/2004 9:23:50 AM

Atlanta, Georgia

Well that certainly is good enough for me Joe!
I'll try to prune every other secondary in 2005!
Michel

12/22/2004 9:33:25 AM

Montoursville, PA

A perfect canopy would be a solid field of green leaves just about touching their nearest negighbors. Removing every other secondary goes a long way towards making room for a filled but not overlapping canopy.

Overlapping leaves damage each other, shade each other, harbor insects, create a higher humidity micro climate and harbor pathogens and reduce good air circulation. I agree that pinching them as soon as they show is good.

I really think cutting them with a razor sharp tool will enable better and faster healing. My razor sharp tool is a fish filet knife. It stands, in a quart milk bottle, filled with a 10% Chlorox, in water solution, by volume. I do not move from one plant, to the next, without plopping that knife, in the bottle, while I take a brief break.

12/22/2004 11:12:54 AM

San Diego

I did every other secondary for the first time last year. Unfortunately I got mosaic before setting my fruit, so I got blanked. But I will say this, the plant was soooo much easier to manage and take care of, much easier to get to the main, and a heck of a lot less pruning and burying vines since there is only half the plant. I'm definitely going for it this year with only 400 sq ft. Jimmy

12/22/2004 12:35:35 PM

Joliet, IL

thank you all for the input. i like the "every 3rd one
idea" better for main access. i think i remember the
peterson-carlson tag team saying they leave all secondaries
on. but then it is hard to argue with joe's success as well,
and tom beachy said in the chat room he whacks every other
one. i will at least try it on one plant for sure and maybe
two. now the question is, which plant to try it on. most
likely it will be the one with the smallest width between
secondaries.

and with that in mind, what is the average
space between leaf junctions? has this number ever been
recorded? it would be nice knowing the tendencies of
each plant with this number in mind. the 1082 curry for
example was a quick grower with wide spaces between each
secondary. i wouldn't have touched any secondaries. the 695
handy last year was in between, or average, and i would go every third sec. and in hindsight, the 1301.5 would have been a great candidate for pruning every other one.

12/22/2004 2:39:19 PM

Joliet, IL

sorry for thinking out loud here for a spell,
but to know if a plant is compact (short length between
secondaries), average, or spacey (longer lengths between
secondaries) would be nice to know for planning where
to plant each one in the patch with pruning every other
secondaries in mind. spacey plants will need a little more
room to grow and could then be panted in the longer plot
in the patch.

so if anyone wants to list some ot the plants they grew
as being compact, average, or spacey, feel free.

my 695 handy-average
my 1082 curry-spacey
my 1301.5 eaton-compact

with every seed being different and growing conditions
and temps coming into play also, everyone will have
different results i am sure. but if a plant shows on average
to be compact or spacey would be good info to have.

anyone who grew a 842, a 1247 handy, or a 735 pukos,
please feel free to share with me this info because
it will help me feel better when i start whacking
those secondaries next year if i do not whimp out again.

12/22/2004 2:39:45 PM

Cologne / Germany

Shazzy, I measured my plants before culling in October for 2 years and had an average distance of 15 inch between every junction (leaf, vine) on every side of a vine.

12/22/2004 3:37:22 PM

Long Island,New York

Plants with 900Lyons backgrounds are open and airy plants generally.....if you walk down a row of 10 plants you can pick out the 900Lyons with ease...its the only one you can see the soil through the plant. Real squash tend to be more compact...fruit earlier, etc. Just my 2 cents

12/22/2004 3:52:21 PM

Roanoke Il

how about removing the leaves on ever other secoundry and burring the vine as it grow say at 15-20 feet at the end of the secoundry that you chopped off the leaves you leave 2 to 3 leaves right before you dead head the vine, I tried this last season the vine seamed healthy and well rooted. I feel this method gives the plant the biggest root base possible.. with the advantages of trimming every other vine...mark

12/22/2004 6:16:43 PM

Cologne / Germany

Mark, posted on the "multiple sinks" thread I removed the leaves and the vines turned mushy later. If you plan to do so, it should be done before, at the moment when the leaves appear, never with any parts already "grown-up".

12/22/2004 6:31:27 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

I'm planning on trying every other secondary next year as well. This year I left every secondary, and they seemed crowded, and the inner leaves(most of them) tended to cup up. I would think that pruning every other secondary would cause larger, and flatter leaves, for more efficient collection of the sun energy.
I remember either Carlson, or Peterson stating that when they pruned every other secondary, it resulted in a problem of the mainvine blowing up(apart). Maybe the plants got too much energy from the every other secondary method. My soil isn't very rich, so I hope my plants and fruits hold together.
If I remember correctly Jerry Rose stated that he prunes every other secondary. Maybe he can chime in. Jerry, you there? It seems he lost quite a few pumpkins to splits this yr. I don't know if his pruning methods influenced this, or not.
Maybe highly fertile(super charged soils), combined with the every other secondary method, is too powerful of a combination for the plant/pumpkin to take?
Also, with less secondaries, this would lead to less sinks, correct? Maybe the other sinks get more juice. With less secondaries, there would be less vines and leaf stalks to feed, therefore more food for the pumpkin? These I some of my thoughts. I could be wrong on them all(LOL).
I think this could be an awesome method for some growers.

Doug

12/22/2004 8:50:26 PM

Montoursville, PA

The only reasons to prune any leaf or secondary is to enable the remaining to be:

1. Easier to care for when feeding or spraying.
2. Eliminate competition between leaves.
3. Provide maximum sun access to leaf surface.
4. Improve air circulation through understories.
5. Decrease high humidity periods.
6. Establish clear view critter discovery lanes.
7. Enable easier mulch and/or hoeing access.
8. Emotional only! Creates a good looking patch.

Seems to me all, of the above, enables a stronger plant that will produce the best fruit that all, of the total factors can produce.

12/23/2004 11:29:13 AM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Would the pruning of every other secondary also promote the main to grow faster and therefore get a fruit set further out on the main at an earlier time of the season?

Phil

12/23/2004 11:55:31 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Phil, I think that the main definitely grows faster, but I am not sure about the timing of the fruit set.

12/23/2004 12:06:13 PM

Indiana

Ok would you still prune every other secondary of you were growing in the flag pattern?? ie vines on one side of the main, or would it be better to leave all of the secondaries on that side of the vine. Basically growing a flag is pruning every other secondary but only on one side. Thoughts??

12/23/2004 7:13:59 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Moondog, Yes, that came up earlier last summer. A flag is really cutting off every other vine except for the opening up the plant.

12/23/2004 8:20:15 PM

Minnesota([email protected])

Phil,
I was wondering that too. If the main does grow faster, you could in theory have a larger plant in area, by fruit set. The secondaries may also grow faster, I'm hoping. I'm hoping it will let me set my fruit earlier, which would be a great asset here in central MN.

12/23/2004 8:41:21 PM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Doug, reffering to your previous post: my maine also blew up, but I guess that this was due to genetics (636 Dill) rather than the pruning method.

12/25/2004 5:51:56 AM