Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Among the tenured growers I've posed this question to in the past most feel it is best to start or get to one as early as possible.

12/20/2004 6:27:17 AM

docgipe

Montoursville, PA

We speak of a polination window roughly from the 25th of the month through the tenth of the month that will give the fruit in the Northeast a desirable frost free growing period with enough days to mature by about mid September. Most exciting growth appears in late July and August following the early development of the fruit in early July.

I doubt anyone has a hard and fast way to pinpoint abortions before they appear. Therefore it may pay to have three or four pollinated and watched closely through basketball. In my brief experience I have noticed that the three or four possible fruits can be pollinated between fifteen and twenty feet out. That is another average for larger fruit. I pinch of females less than twelve feet out.

Within a few days one of the pollinated three or four will do better than the others. This has usually shown up between softball and a point a tad beyond basketball size for me. At this point I go with the plant's decision concerning the chosen sink.

The remaining fruit are cut off two days apart until we are down to the one that will become the next world championship fruit. Then we build the shade house or cover and sit back to observe why that champion will not quite make the roll call of champions. We won't tell a soul we backed into it with the tractor or over applied some anointment of wishful thinking beyond what mother permits.

I doubt there would be any reason to pollinate much earlier or much later unless, for some reason, a late abortion appears and you have to punt. Going earlier finishes early. Going later yields a fruit that may not have matured.

Count the days and pattern the grow. The averages of success are nearly all within this pattern of growth.

12/20/2004 7:03:45 AM

Joze (Joe Ailts)

Deer Park, WI

Growth rate of a fruit is determined by its OWN sink strength, and is not an additive effect including it's neighbors. I understand your logic, basically convincing the plant to switch gears, but im afraid thats not how nature plays. The onset of flower development is the actual switch, where PGR (hormonal) shifts take place that prepare the plant for fruit growth.

Experience has shown that the first 10-15 days of fruit growth are probably the most important in determining the end-weight of the fruit. Therefore, anything that takes away from a new set's growing capability (other fruit sets) is going to hinder your end result.

In my personal opinion, the ideal situation is setting one fruit. Nothing more, and hopefully nothing less!

That's an awfully risky venture, so for insurance reasons, many growers make one or two additional sets along the main and cull as needed.

If you are growing for size, I'd shy away from secondary vine sets.

12/20/2004 8:56:09 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Brett Hester, had tried this a few years back. I believe he set multiple fruit out on the ends of the secondary vines. It was in one of Holland's video's....I think 2002? Anything that builds young roots will work well.

IMHO...Setting pumpkins on the ends of secondaries may cause the plant to send more vigorous roots along each vine. However, much more detailed research is needed to discover the relationship between sinks, leaves, vines & roots. An in depth study of PGR hormones and how young roots are developed would also help. Questions to be answered include can a plant be shifted from sink production to root production in certain vine sections after local pollination? Do PGR's have localized effects or do they translate changes to the plant on a whole wide spread basis. This I believe is really the heart of your question.

As Tom points out boom is a high possibility with these youngish fruit. It happened to me a number of times last year. Growing quickly does not appear to be a big problem. The uptake of anti-splitting nutrients is the answer. For this you need young unsuberized roots for adequate calcium intake in mid to late season fruits to push your progeny to the promissed land of 1000 pound glory.

As I have heard before from many heavy hitters. "If your not blowing them your not growing them". Joze will help sort out this messy post.

12/20/2004 9:01:20 AM

Water (John)

Midway City, California

Can you give me a diffintion of Sink

12/20/2004 9:42:26 AM

Sink: place where stuff falls. Such as any meristematic or other growing place as opposed to "source" that originates the energy destined for the "sinks".

12/20/2004 10:07:27 AM

Ontario, Canada.

What hormonal changes take place at the flower during fruit set. Seams to me as if the wiring is in the correct order the fruit will contiue to grow and grow. Can delaying the onset of additional hormonal changes past day 15 really result in increased weights?

12/20/2004 11:16:41 AM

docgipe

Montoursville, PA

You better believe I will go with average until someone consistently raises the average. Then if I change anything I will still try to manage within well proven averages.

I do not have time, space or the knowledge to play into research and development. I do not have any desire to correct or attempt to correct another in soil self created chemical intrusion upon the perfectly natural biological soil.

Average is fine for me as long as it is the average of those leaning to healthy patch development with natural additives like manures, composts and remineralization.

Using the average practice of successful players is not at all a bad way to learn any trade...so to speak. And if a fruit is not a sink then the average needs to be reeducated. That having been done no personal management growth will have transpired just one word may be used a little more correctly or differently.

Goodness knows we have enough difficulty learning the average management, of our growing practices. We can tweak language and practices up, in a natural improving, of one's self as we achieve high average and move into leadership positions.

If someone else wishes to run on the edge of all pumpkin life experiences losing many along the way that is a fine undertaking to discover the acceptable limit edges.

12/20/2004 11:20:20 AM

Brooks B

Ohio

Man this sink stuff is confusing, Im still trying to figure it out.
How would you explain a sink if it was a car motor with all the wiring.I think I would Understand this alot better.

Does the pumpkin have to be in a certain place on the vine to be the sink?

Brooks

12/21/2004 8:14:38 AM

Ontario, Canada.

LOL. Brooks you crack me up...Most believe the optimum fruit position for maximum potential is 10 to 15 or more feet from the crown. However there are many exceptions as large pumpkins have been grown on sides and back vines too.

Car engine analogy? OK let me try.

Think of the plants sink as if it were a cylinder. Fuel and air is fed into it to produce an explosion in the cylinder. The best compression and right fuel to air mixture produces the biggest bang. In this case more horsepower is produced(LARGEST PUMPKIN). Any stresses that slow down the flow of air or fuel result in turbulance which decreases horsepower and a fruits size. Varing the ratios during the course of the race can cause an accident(SPLIT). When the gas tank empties your position on the grid is determined by all the factors that go into and support the Engine. How good is the mechanic (grower)

12/21/2004 8:45:07 AM

overtherainbow

good answer

12/21/2004 10:01:01 AM

Cologne / Germany

from an article I just posted concerning AG history from 1997,
http://outside.away.com/magazine/0297/9702fepump.html

"If Lembke's handiwork is successful, the tiny fruit that's present under every female blossom "takes off." He'll bury each vine so it will throw down a taproot and bring up more nutrients. To get maximum nourishment and water into the potential prizewinners, he'll gradually winnow the number of fruits on the plant to five or six and then, after about 30 days, to one.

This last fruit, known among horticulturists as a "sink," will be the beneficiary of the entire plant's photosynthates. Some vines and leaves will also be carefully pruned. "You want the nutrition going into the pumpkin, not those other parts," Lembke says."

12/21/2004 10:19:27 AM

Cologne / Germany

another link I bookmarked last summer looking for info on "galls" on the leaves of some trees in my garden:
http://www.rps.psu.edu/sep98ug/plant.html

quote: "Gall formation closely resembles the development of a new fruit or leaf on a plant. Fruits and leaves demand sugars and nutrients, so the plant sends these necessary materials to them through phloem, the circulating system of the plant. Such a "material-attractor," Shultz explains, is known as a sink. A gall also creates a sink, tricking the plant into thinking it's a new leaf.

"Sink formation appears to be regulated by an enzyme called invertase," Schultz explains.

"Invertase takes sucrose from phloem, breaks it into two subunits, and feeds it into cells." Think of a factory – invertase stands at the conveyer belt, taking a sucrose every now and then from the dozens floating past, and changing it into the simple sugars fructose and glucose, which are forms that cells can use, and so creating a demand for more sucrose.

Fully grown adult leaves normally photosynthesize to create sucrose. That' s their job, the creation of energy for the plants, its fruits and budding leaves. Since adult leaves have stopped growing, they export their sucrose and retire the hardworking invertases, who spend their days sleeping. But fruits and new leaves – or any sink – need large amounts of fructose and glucose to grow. So invertase activity increases."

12/21/2004 10:44:17 AM

urban jungle

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Very interesting Floh. Let me add just this: the transport in the phloem itself depends on the energy obtained from “burning” glucose end fructose, but in this case they derive from sucrose, which is cleaved by sucrose synthase. The reason for this is that sucrose synthase cleaves sucrose energetically more efficient than invertase, which is important in the case of phloem because it has limited supplies of oxygen (and thus limited “burning” capacity). For the same reason, sucrose synthase works instead of invertase in many bulky sinks, which have limited oxygen supplies.

12/21/2004 11:16:58 AM

AXC

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I can remember reading some cucurbit research somewhere that said removing young fruits leads to a reduction in aborts in the fruit that are left.

12/21/2004 11:27:54 AM

AXC

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

It took a bit of finding but here is the link.

http://www.actahort.org/books/588/588_9.htm

12/21/2004 11:44:55 AM

Brooks B

Ohio

kahuna, you need to go on Jeperady with all your smarts. No kidding!

"Ill take pumpkins that sink for 500 alex"lol

I total understand now, Thanks!

12/21/2004 5:45:15 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Does this make any sense?

1.Allow only 1 or 2 sinks (females per plant) 15'to 20'out.
2.Daily remove any other sinks (blossoms male and female).
3.Terminate all Sinks (growing vines) at fruit set.

Only two places remain to build a sink. The fruit or the roots.

12/21/2004 6:04:12 PM

Cologne / Germany

Russ, leaves and roots "feed" the sinks so I would prefer to go with much of them as possible.
Once buried, secondaries build up roots on their own pretty fast so I don´t think one needs to set fruit there to get them. 1 - 3 potential keepers on the main should be good and reduce the "boom risk".
"You normally terminate your first secondary by the time you pollinate the first female". Pap said so and I saw it working for me - it even happened on the same day - terminating the first 12 ft sec and pollinating at 13 ft on the main. These plants like balance and symmetry -:)

12/21/2004 6:36:28 PM

Leaves & roots are "source" material after a given point of maturity is reached. So floh's observations (which do jive with hitters I know) seem to indicate this happens around day 60 if the plant is properly developing.

Metabolic & hormonal "signalling" triggers the plant to recognize any & all "sinks" & send photosynthate to the sink for growth.

Recognizing the proper stage in developement can be as anal as counting leaves or measuring secondaries with a tape measure. I'm sure many hitters do this by feel. But at some stage in plant developement, all extraneous meristematic growth is terminated to reduce the sinks so that the source can do it's thing.

This is no secret & techniques to manage the sink/source relationship can be traced all the way back to 1903 (Warnock). What we might be able to do in todays age to improve the result is to utilize all that modern technology offers to keep the source as healthy & productive as possible for as long as possible.

Another angle of approach could be to identify any hormonal triggers that might exist & manage them in the most productive way possible. Altering growth rates with hormones can be extremely counter-productive if not timed perfectly. But times properly at correct rates....

12/21/2004 9:49:40 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Keeping the source as healthy & productive as possible for as long as possible. Thus delaying senesence. The main trend that seams to have taken hold over the past years is smaller plants thereby reducing or halting extraneous meristematic growth earlier in the sinks life cycle. Setting the wiring earlier.

Indications from some hitters has also opened the possibility of removing some source components. This could also result in a faster lean burning engine. Reduction of respiration capacity has been at the heart of the theory of removing whole vine sections. Could removal of leaves only, actually benefit the fruit sink further? Source supply and demand imbalance causes many problems. For growers who are blowing them up this may be the answer. Moderating demands of the sun driven source could propel a sink further in the long run.

12/21/2004 10:52:12 PM

Doing more with less.....this might give rise to a new thread. Total pounds grown per square foot of plant. Geographic location (line of latitude) & genetics needs to be considered. I envision a rating system where each seed is rated by pounds per sq. ft. & line of latitude.

12/22/2004 8:43:16 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Yes Steve, Doing more with less leaves though not necessarily less roots though.

12/22/2004 11:16:31 AM

Cologne / Germany

Removal of leaves only - when I tried this on certain secondary vines leaving them "naked" they turned mushy after a while and I had to remove them - no benefit at all here.
Maybe I made a mistake but it looked all removals from the plant should have been done in an early stage of development or never (thinking about the plant trying to get rid off "dead" or "useless" material :-)

12/22/2004 1:03:42 PM