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Hamilton, MT

Last Fall I received these numbers on my soil test abd the remarks I received:
OM = 5.5%
NO3-N = 50+ ppm
NO3-N = 100lbs/ac
P = 70 ppm
K = 584 ppm
Sulphur = 13 ppm,
Texture = Loam
CaCO3 (Lime) = slight,
PH = 6.5
Salt Haz. = 1.13
Sodium = 0.5 meq/100
Remarks: “Need gypsum at 7.5#/1000sq.feet. May want to apply 3#/1000sq.feet of urea (46-0-0) in June between plants and irrigate in.”

Anyway, after I'd sent in the sample, last fall I added
2 loads of dry horse manure,
1 load of dry llama poop,
2 25# bags of hot chicken poop,
6 bags of last years leaves,
about 60 bags of this years leaves - mowed over them,
about 35# of Thermal Cal - (limestone)
3 yards of top soil,
1 bucket of wood ashes,
12oz molasses, then later in November -
~15# Gypsum,
2 oz Fish,
2 oz Seaweed,
1 Qt Black Strap Molasses,
and 18 more bags of leaves.

So now I get my Spring Soil numbers... cont'd...

5/1/2004 12:10:05 AM

Hamilton, MT

....cont'd
Mostly following Doc's RX last fall and since March I've added:
15# gypsum
1/3 truck load lama poop
All the coffee grounds I could collect from a shop since Jan.
3 lbs of Blood meal
1 qt of black strap molasses
2 oz Fish
2 oz Seaweed

Here are my new Spring Soil numbers:
OM 14.8%
N 7 ppm
P (weak bray??) 132 ppm
P 194 ppm
K 1773 ppm
Mg 461 ppm
Ca 3317 ppm
Na 85 ppm
Sulphur 557 ppm
Zn 21.0 ppm
Mn 49 ppm
Fe 34 ppm
Cu 2.3 ppm
B 2.8 ppm
The % Cation Saturation: K 18%, Mg 15%, Ca 65.6%, Na 1.5%
CEC 25.2 meq/100g
pH 7.1
Ex Lime H

So am I doing better? What do I need to be careful of? And what can I do to improve for this season and then in the fall?
I thank anyone in advance for your input!
Kim

5/1/2004 12:25:16 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

first thoughts here...your K (potassium) is very high, especially out of balance with P (phosphorous), look at your CEC %'s
.....K is going to lock up the P and calcium in the soil unless you get things balanced out, happened to me last year.

5/1/2004 2:04:51 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

PS...some will disagree but using a small amount of DAP (I have learned) is your quickest route to bringing that P up to some type of balance with K
Tremor should sound in on this one....

5/1/2004 6:54:54 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

If there is a down side to using manure, it's the effect we see here on low P / high K soils. In the future, I would use a different source for organic material like composted leaves or Peat Moss.

For now, I'm with Kyle. DAP will raise the P quicker than anything else available. DAP @ 3lbs/M is conservative but that's good enough & a heavy hand won't make things better at this point.

Some Gypsum will bring the Ca:Mg ratio (4:1 now) back into line (desired = 7:1). Figure around 200 lbs/M. The Gypsum will also knock those salts back down. Irrigate well after application. Refrain from flooding the patch though. AG's don't mind some salts & you still need to be able to work the soil.

Steve

5/1/2004 8:07:26 AM

Montoursville, PA

Heavy irrigation to reduce salts may leach out your blood meal. You may replace it with Alfalfa meal up to twenty pounds per 1000 sq. ft.

You moved dramatically in a short period of time. I did the same a year ago. I think my inclusion of a few bales of peat moss held my ballances a little better.

I would now put the fowl poop through the compost pile and only add other manures in the fall. Composts finished or nearly finished may go on anytime.

I really think your test reflects some of what is expected following such dramatic movements. Your fall test before fall adding of any more will begin to give you a better picture. I think your ballances will be an entirely different picture by fall. When building organic ballances the major players are healthy biological content over a longer period of time. Tossing in this and that for the perfect ratio seems out of order since no one really knows what great ratios are anyway. For every right ratio there are more than one opposites that produced a great success.
Your soil test is only an indicator or direction. All indications are that your biological side should be working their little butts off to build you a great pumpkin.

It's about time to ask the pumpkin how it likes it's new home. If they don't answer you assume that you have done pretty well for a major improvement movement and give your soil a chance to ammend itself. Help it this fall if you feel to far out of line.

5/1/2004 10:57:22 AM

Hamilton, MT

Wow, thanks for all the input. A few follow up Q?s now -

Kyle, DAP - DiAmoniumPhosphate, right? Is that over the feed mill counter easy stuff to find?

Steve, your recommended 3#/M (Million?), what unit is this? How much per 1000sq feet?
My patch is ~850 sq ft.
I applied 100# Gypsum today (you rec. 200#/M (?)- I'll wait til I figure out the unit needed) and am watering it in tonight.

Doc, are you suggesting I add Alfalfa Meal now? or when? And the "few bales of peat moss" - should that be incorporated now, before planting, or is that next fall?

Yikes, I was so hoping to nail it this year. When I test in the fall, I assume it should be before anything is added, then ammend as needed, right?
Man I'm glad you guys are around and so willing to pitch in - BIG Thanks!
Kim

5/1/2004 11:08:23 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Kim...Yep, DiAmmoniumPhosphate
Should be able to find that at a farm supply and apply at 3 lbs per 1000 sq ft...gypsum at 200# per 1000 sq ft.
The DAP works fast so it's a relatively quick fix. It's a chemical like we all hate to use but nothing organic that I know of is gonna fix that problem (and trust me, it's a problem you don't want) very quickly.
If I may speak for Doc...I think he meant adding alfalfa meal IF you're gonna water like crazy to get rid of some salts, but AM is a god source of nitogen and you're gonna need to add some. You can also consider corn meal, blood meal, some other organic sources..I like 12-0-0 blood meal myself.
You have time for these corrections...it's a month before your plants start extensively branching out thru the patch soil...you'll be fine if you act now.

5/2/2004 3:40:50 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Oops...I see you use blood meal already, good job. It'll leach tho' like Doc said so replace it if you water heavily to remove salts, alfalfa meal is a good alternate.

5/2/2004 3:46:33 AM

Hamilton, MT

I'm not having any luck finding DAP - is there a name brand or website to hit up?

I added 150#Gypsum this weekend and watered it in for a while - I'll add another 3#of blood meal if you think I ought to.

Gotta find that DAP!

Kim

5/3/2004 10:21:32 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

If you live in an area where maize is grown your local agricultural store will have DAP or MAP in stock now.
MAP is very similar (because of this they usually stock one or the other and not both)and will do exactly the same job in practice the advantage with these two is that they can come in smaller than normal bags for ease of loading into precision drill hoppers so you don't have to buy so much.Superphosphate would also do fine.

5/4/2004 3:21:59 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

When I typed 3#/M, I meant 3 pounds per 1000 square feet.

MAP will work well too if that's all you can find. There are other P sources but they're all too slow for your situation.

Since so little is needed, you might find that a full stocking Espoma dealer has 3 or 5 lb bags in stock. For sure a good Ag Retailer would have 50 lb bags in stock.

Steve

5/4/2004 6:13:04 AM

Montoursville, PA

It can't be done in one year. Three years of patient building and you can be excellent in all ways. Of course it is my opinion that time will correct your imballance naturally. I would not put that synthetic into my patch.

It is no secret here that I hate the stuff that sickens or kills off my biological living critters. The bacteria and other living parts of your patch will build a healthy soil.

Stephen is correct. Your imballence apparently came from lack of browns...leaves, lots of leaves most likely would have prevented this imballance. Start stockpiling leaves for fall now. Consider adding some peat this fall with the leaves. Use no fresh poop or un-composted leaves of any make in the following Spring. Spring is for finished or nearly finished compost and very old manures if any.

5/4/2004 10:19:31 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

I don't like synthetics either but I disagree with Doc that you shouldn't use the DAP/MAP.
The consequences of *not* using it are worse than the detrimental effect 3# of the stuff, per 1000 sq ft, is going to cause. Contained within that 1000 sq ft are tons and tons and tons of soil that I don't think 3# of synthetics are going to ruin...3# spread out over that much space is a very small amount.
If you don't use it, you're sure to face the problems I had last year and be lucky to get over several hundred pounds weight even with pampering and coaxing like I did. Your heavy Montana winter moisture is sure to leach much of that out before next spring anyway.

5/4/2004 12:49:58 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

I like organic, I try and build my patch organic, and I believe organic to be the most desirable method when given a choice...BUT...soil fertilizers were created to help quickly where Mother Nature can't, and if they were that detrimental to the point of absolute ruination of this planet then it, and us, would've starved a long time ago.
Soil will repair itself over time, but time isn't always a luxury we have. Use the DAP, you're not gonna ruin your earth with it.

5/4/2004 1:18:16 PM

Montoursville, PA

This line is a prime example as to why learning and healthy patch corrections cease to be considered. We are all free to continue as we always have or we might go to other bases of information and ask questons.

I do not even know what is being considered. It must however be poison based on the discussion. If it is a poison it gives only temporary relief and long term grief.

It is noted that we don't have time for a correction. Interesting because if enough poison enters the patch it will go bad and the recourse will be to abandon the patch.
Yet these things that absolutely lead us to worse conditions continue to be the Rx offered. It has happend here and the reccommendation amazingly was..."You may as well head for new ground or hang it up".

5/4/2004 2:41:37 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

DAP is phosphate= chemical phosphorous..not poison. Phosphorous in and of itself and by nature, whether it be organic or not, is a chemical...not poison. It's advocated in very small amounts and to not use it could be to possibly waste your time and season.
Most everything you put in your soil, organic included, is a *chemical* when broken down to the molecular level...not poison. It would then be correctly analogous to call manure and kelp..poison.
Doc, you're a very knowledgable man with many great years of invaluable gardening experience. You have helped many people on this site, myself included...I repeat, myself included, to build healthier, happier patches. But because you don't like a particular substance (especially one in very small comparative amounts), or how some others do things, does not make you righteous in calling those things "poison" or degrading the use of alternative means of doing things. It also doesn't make you wrong either.
My point is this...there is no absolute right, nor absolute wrong. What's right is doing what you have to do to have a successful season, what's wrong is doing nothing.

5/4/2004 4:18:01 PM

Hamilton, MT

Wow,
Quite a discussion here - I appreciate both sides, immensely!

So, MAP - MonoAmmoniumPhosphate, I'm guessing? Just want to know what I'm asking for at the counter...because the clerks sure don't know. :)
I live in a somewhat Ag area, but have come up empty handed for DAP. I'll seek out MAP now... or, do nothing, we'll see.
Thanks guys!

5/4/2004 4:51:21 PM

Montoursville, PA

Kyle.........you are being most difficult. If you will read again, correctly, what I have said you may be amazed to find out I clearly only raised a major question and I said clearly I did not know this DAP product.
....The basis of truth lies within the answer not provided to the question: In order to support the biological patch the product must not be synthetic. It must not kill or sicken any living part of the patch. It must have come from a living source or be a natural mined mineral. Even if it were called an organic product it must not be in levels of strength that upset the ballances of the patch as many did with the use of 0-0-60 which to my surprise is reported to be organically approved.
This is not now and never was a comprimised arguement. I could care less what anyone does to his or her soils. Let's not warp the synthetics into healthy patch products that they can not be when used in any large amounts or even smaller amounts over many years. Either way nuking is the result sometimes to the end of no immediate return. Even then if they are leached out and and the soil is returned to production the leached poisons are downstream in your wells, underground pools, rivers, bays and oceans. Those manufactured products do not bio-degrade. They can do nothing but pile up down steam.

All of the natural products can bio-degrade. None of the truely synthetics can bio-degrade and that is the absolute truth. We either contribute to the problem which is world wide or we make an effort to withdraw from using the bio-cides which kill or sicken living critters of all sizes from bacteria to man.

5/4/2004 7:40:47 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

I take exception to your use of the word "poison" with anything that you do not accept. "Poison" is a harsh term I believe is used quite unfairly in your vocabulary. You seem to refer to any and all chemicals as that when in essence *all* things are chemically based.
If that is being difficult then I can accept that....

5/4/2004 9:15:09 PM

Montoursville, PA

OK....what words would you prefer I use for elements that kill the biological living critters in and around the patch?

...I do like to use terms that are literal and leave no doubt in anyone's mind as to what kills. I like to raise issues that cause some folks to dig in and seek alternative practices which may eliminate or reduce the use of harsh chemicals that maime, sicken and kill any life forms.

....the advisory for pregnant ladies not to eat fish and for all of us not to eat fish frequently is just one evidence, of the poisons moving directly into human life health issues directly through the water we profess to protect and healthy food we used to enjoy.

5/4/2004 10:55:51 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

DAP doesn't harm or kill anything unless a 50 lb bag falls from a very high place & lands on ones head. That might hurt.

From the MSDS:

INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

2.1 Nature of ingredients and concentration

Product containing diammonium phosphate as essential ingredient with small amount of mono ammonium phosphate

Total nitrogen: x (18-21)%

P2O5 soluble in neutral ammonium citrate and water: y (45-53)%

2.2 classification

Not classed as hazardous material according to EEC Directive 67/548/EEC.

3. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION

3.1 Human health

The fertilizers are basically harmless products when handled correctly. However, the following points should be noted.

Skin Contact

Prolonged contact may cause some irritation.

Eye Contact

May cause irritation following contact.

Ingestion

Small quantities are unlikely to cause toxic effect.

Large quantities may give rise to gastro-intestinal disorders.

Inhalation

High dust concentrations of air-borne material may cause irritation of the nose and upper respiratory tract with symptoms such as sore throat and coughing.

Long term effects

No adverse effects are known.

Fire and thermal decomposition products

Inhalation of decomposition gases can cause irritation and corrosive effects on the respiratory system. Some lung effects may be delayed.

3.2 Environment

Possible eutrophication in confined surface waters in case of massive spillage.

5/4/2004 11:16:00 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Doc,
The word "Precision" is the one I like.
I read it and think "I know exactly what nutrient I'm gonna get and when I'm gonna get it" and you can read it and think "I know exactly what its gonna kill" and everybody's happy.

5/5/2004 6:44:29 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Call things as you wish, you will anyway.
Since last Fall I have added compost, manures, gypsum, greensand, kelp meal, micronutrients ("natural and organic" chemicals in a jar), corn meal, feed grade molasses, etc. etc...numerous organic "chemicals"...to my patches.
I also added DAP at 5# per 1000 sq ft to level out my P/K balance because there was no other alternative that would straighten my situation out by Spring.
I have the biggest, fattest, sassiest red worms in my patch ever seen in my county. My patch dirt is dark and melts in my hands. My soil test results have come back and look outstanding! I have never been in better shape for a season. But despite all the organic additions I've done that have improved my soil since Fall, I lay the biggest improvement credit to the DAP for without it my test results would be skewed, which means I'd be screwed.
Geez, a happy healthy patch with poison in it, how could that happen?
Organic is great, I follow the principles. But don't be so narrow minded as to ignore the technology that allows gardeners to have other choices and alternatives that correct conditions where Mother Nature can't sometimes.
Open your eyes and thoughts, being truly 100% organic is great but it is not a complete end-all. Without some type of chemical intervention many growers are simply going to succumb to nutritional deficiencies, disease, and pests. I know I'm not willing to gamble my season on the hope that pure organic is gonna correct my imbalances, stop mildew and blight, or defend against the SVB's. If you rely solely on that hope and promise then a short disastrous season is in store.
Oh, and it's 0-0-50 that's touted as organic and if you research it you'll see that it is.
Good luck to all this season.

5/5/2004 6:50:37 AM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

Ive been in the fertilizer business for 20 years and this organic/ chemical discussion always amazes me. DAP, MAP and Triple Super Phosphate are all made from "Organic" Phospherous ore, mostly mined in central florida. This phosphorous ore is fossilised bird poop deposited several million years ago. They process this ore with nitrogen taken directly from our atmosphere (78% Nitrogen). What is chemical about that? Making the jump from what is considered organic to non-organic usually has to do with the amount of processing involved. Modern fertilizer products have been refined to be more concentrated and thus lowering the cost of transportation. MAP (11-52-0), DAP(18-46-0) and Tripple (0-46-0) are all made from the same "organic" base ore. Potash is really no different. Muriate of potash (0-0-60 red or 0-0-62 white)are highly consentrated "salts" Potasium chloride, which is a naturally occuring mineral.

5/7/2004 4:10:58 PM