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Calif

After a steady decline in weights , over 12 years in patches , some patches with 2 year breaks still the increasing pathogen problems . I realize some pathogen last 4-6years in the patch. One might wonder if it is better to leave your cache of OM in a pile covered with a tarp for spring---- hopefullly to keep it heated up-- as opposed to speading in a cooler environment in the fall. Can anyone tell me why it is really better to spread it in the fall?

11/6/2006 8:48:07 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

In the scenario you describe fall integration wouldn't be all that desirable.

However most growers are relying on fresh manures so spreading them in the fall (to a clean patch) gives time for worms & bacteria to "cool" them off.

Covered manure piles won't lose as much Nitrogen which can be useful. But they should be closely monitored for moisture & vented & aerated from time to time.

If a 2 year break hasn't resulted in a drop of soil borne disease, it may be time to consider a different control strategy. I'm trying to get some of our local Fusarium infested patches on am aggressive Compost Tea program for 2007. Some advocates of CT are claiming near 100% control when properly administered.

11/6/2006 10:06:08 PM

Calif

Battling the soil borne pathos is rough. I take it that the compost tea is introducing more good guys to compete with the bad on the host plus adding nutrients. Glad to hear of that success.

I plan on solarizing that old soil next summer. But will start up a new patch . Thus the dilema---for years have always added in the fall compost and manuer a friend who has grown for many years covers and lets everything cook till spring. He has no fungal probs. I have to wonder if i didn't introduce the uncooked spores from some bad compost. i made the mistake of adding some city green waste compost which when you think about the gardners are cutting dead and desease plants all the time and putting them in the pick up cans. then there composted. i think it makes better sense for the prevention of bad fungi to cook over winter. But wondered what advantages i would be missing. The worms and soil digestion would definetly count as a plus. I wonder what the most common practice is among the HH? MB

11/7/2006 12:02:04 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

Gonna sound crazy here..but ya also gotta clean the equipment..especially if you know you have a problem with the soil. Just because your not using that old patch doesn't mean you can drag your shovels and rakes to a new area start digging and spread the nitrogen without causing a new bloom...bleach the tools..avoid walking through infected areas.tough to keep going when you're a backyard patch but losing the patch will take a least two years to get going again even with sterilization.

11/7/2006 9:21:54 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Jack Larue doesn't till his fall applied amendments anymore. His soil is so well amended he doesn't need to till. He is one of many Hitters. It would be good to hear if others are using this same technique.

11/7/2006 10:20:58 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

If these soil pathogen critters are little bitty guys??? microscopic size...is it possible that the ones that are hangin around the edges of the pile...covered or not...are survivin the high temps in the middle of the pile....?? Do the high temps in the middle kill the bad stuff at the edges???? Just a thought. Peace, Wayne

11/7/2006 11:14:48 PM

Rockland

Someone this year told me they would use liquid bleach in the fall to kill the bad bacteria.They would dilute the bleach and spread it over the patch.anyone heard of this or tried it?

11/9/2006 8:35:46 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Wayne...it is very possible for pathogens to survive in a home compost pile. The main reason for their survuval is improper technique. First, the pile has to get hot and stay hot. Second, it must be turned often. But, even in a properly maintained home operation there is the possibility of missing something in the turns. The best defence against pathogens is a good offence. Avoiding and controlling infection is the best way to prevent future problems. Alexsdad made an excellent point. Dragging soil borne pathogens around the garden is the number one cause of rapid spread.
If Fusarium, Sclerotinia, or any other soil borne disease is suspected, the plants should be removed from the patch as carefully as possible to prevent spreading it. The plants should then be disposed of in a waste facility or burned. Plants that are infected with certain diseases shuold never be home composted. I know a little bit about composting, but even with my knowledge, when my 1370 went down to Sclerotinia I removed the plant in my garden trailor (which I lined with plastic), covered it with a tarp and hauled it to my burn pile. A quart of gasoline and off it went. That particular patch is now off limits to several plants such as pumpkins and green beans. I will solarize it in the spring and grow corn (which is a non-host). The following year it will grow cabbage and brussle sprouts. I will keep rotating non-host crops and solarizing for a few years and then plant a test patch of green beans and watch for infection since beans are very susptible to sclerotinia. The 1370 plant was never officially tested in a lab for infection, I am going on the symptom of a ruptured main and massive foaming. In any case, minimizing the damage in future years is the first step if infection is even suspected.

11/10/2006 7:49:56 AM

Long Island,New York

Boy, I would think diluted bleach spread over the patch would kill everything good and bad and wreek havock with your soil PH......just curious what that guy who told you that got the year after he did that size-wise.....G

11/10/2006 4:18:41 PM

Calif

Monty, do you know where I can find info on non-host veggies for fusarium and perhaps pythium?? Another thought that I have thunk is when we use legumes for cover corps are we not providing a host for overwinter. I sent my soil in years back and what they do is check the populations in a sample I had moderate levels of fusarium and pythium. If you grow in the same spot for years you start to get a build up that eventually will hinder you plant. Apparently high levels of nitrogen aid fusarium growth. The only simple way to fight the populations is rotation off the ground. Which brings us back to making sure that compost is well cooked but does it have to break down in the ground 6months before planting . Or is the decomposition in the pile spring applied better. who knows?? But there have been some pretty amazing first year growers that get the soil up to par in 6 months.and do fantastic. MB

11/14/2006 11:29:26 AM

Follansbee, Wv

The best way to find info is to research the specific disease. Generally, a non-host rotation crop will be listed in the management and control section. Fusarium, in it's many forms, can attack nearly anything. The form that concers us the most generally attacks solanaceous plants...tomatoes, peppers, potatoes etc. Corn would probably be a good rotational crop. Fusarium control is tough because there are so many varieties of it and it survives in the soil for a long time. I don't know of a non-host for Pythium off the top of my head.
I don't compost "in the ground". Meaning I don't till "raw" materials into the garden, everything is composted in a pile first.

11/14/2006 6:59:08 PM