From

Location

Message

Date Posted

North Of The Border

I am going to try and grow two of each onions carrots rutabagas and beets giant next year. I was planning on starting the prep as early as possible, because they need a lot of loose soil deep down, and I will have to dig by hand. So I was going to dig a trench, essentially, 4 feet down and 25 feet long, and 5 feet wide. So the plants can be planted in the middle of it. This will be a lot of work, which is why I want an early start.

I have some triple 16 granular fertilizer, and hopefully a load of manure, that I can mix in. I was planning on giving the rutabagas and beets a 5x5 square each, and the onions and carrots a 2.5x2.5 square each.

How much fertilizer will I need? And how much manure should I use?


Thanks!

8/18/2020 9:57:19 AM

Grittyville, WA

Onions dont have a taproot. They won't need anywhere near that depth... No clue what you will need to add.

8/19/2020 12:32:30 AM

Central Illinois

Are you going to backfill it with the same soil?If you do I think you'll be disappointed with the results. I have not grown any of the crops you listed,but I think large containers would be best

8/19/2020 6:41:55 AM

North Of The Border

I can either do it like I'm double digging, to a deep depth, or I can dig it out, cart it away, and bring in some very loose compost to add to it. I am undecided, I just knew that carrots especially needed a lot of deep cultivated soil. I was planning on just backfilling, and adding a yard or so of manure, and a 20 pound bag of triple 16, but I wanted some professional opinions. A container may be easier, but as I have said before I am on a strict budget, so I want to save money anywhere I can. Why would I be disappointed in the results? Simply because it would be lousy soil, or for another reason?

I know that the onions don't need that depth, but I thought they would do better in loose soil, like most things. Thinking about it, I don't know if even the rutabagas or beets would need it that deep. Thoughts, anyone?

8/19/2020 7:44:37 AM

Grittyville, WA

I agree with baitman. Double digging (Jeavons) & fluffy soil... these are gardening myths. If you happen to by pure chance get the nutrition and watering correct you will get great results but... first thing is you will deplete the oxygen in the soil if you add organics and fertilizer that deep. Compost is not meant to be placed 3 or four feet down... it should more or less be placed on the surface.

8/19/2020 1:21:31 PM

Grittyville, WA

Containers... especially with sterile peat mix have an advantage which is that they dont come with soil pests. And you can add just the desired soil biology. Pretty sure the world record onion and carrot were grown in containers. If you are going to use natural dirt that is not pristine/prime agricultural land (most land has been too abused) some humic/fulvic acid might help. Getting the ph right and a soil test is the direction you want to go but asically it's not easy to create perfect soil it's a challenge and it's mostly knowing chemistry it's not about a shovel or excavator. I am no expert but I think most of the experts have a pretty narrow idea about what works.

Good time of year to be prepping... put a cover crop on it... or protect the soil with plastic (if you get as much rain as I do) when you are done prepping. I started out thinking like you that the roots need mechanical help... they really need nutrients water and protection from pest. All three of those are higher priorities. Hopefully your triple 16 has micronutrients, sulfer, calcium. Some blends do. And it costs just a little more but I think you will get better results. Hopefully a real expert will correct any advice I give if its wrong! I had to switch my thinking and learn a lot but I still dont get world record results.

8/19/2020 1:42:35 PM

Grittyville, WA

But the first year I tried pumpkins here, all I did was loosened the soil. I got about three puny leaves, the plants then turned yellow and withered. I was pretty empty headed then & some would say I still am.

You are asking the right questions... so you will learn.

8/19/2020 1:47:21 PM

North Of The Border

Like I said previously, I don't have money to spend easily on building a box. I was probably going to put the sand, as I have a very sandy base soil, back in the bottom 2ish feet, and add topsoil, manure, or compost to the top, and then add the triple 16 fertilizer with it. I will also add other fertilizers, but mainly just the triple 16. I know that loose soil isn't every thing, but it's a start, and I figured I would ask how I should continue from there.

I know it's more than mechanical help, but I do know I will have a little bit of time, and should be able to start this by the middle of September, because a pumpkin that was supposed to grow their had a rot spot on the main, and came out. This allows me to do some prep early, and I will just have to wait for some eating tomatoes to come out, and I can finish it. I will try to add humic/fulvic acid, but as I said, limited budget. I hope to get a large onion and carrot for eating, not for a world record. I am recording weights, but not trying to get anything impressive.

Thanks!

8/19/2020 5:00:22 PM

Grittyville, WA

Sounds like it will be a nice garden. I think you should try half as no-till (worm till) and compare the results... That will cut your digging in half... and you might be pleasantly surprised. I keep getting better results with no-till. You can band the fertilizer very heavy at one end, very light at the other. Somewhere along the garden bed, as it goes from more to less, the amount will be perfect and you will grow something big. Continuing on... Band your watering crosswise to the fertilizer from less irrigation to more irrigation... so somewhere both the water and fertilizer will be perfect.

I know this is a bit crazy but I am all out of sane ideas... sanity requires a budget lol.

8/20/2020 10:12:13 AM

Grittyville, WA

Carrots might appreciate loose soil... not sure the beets will. Pests like beets and my feeling is that loosening the soil actually makes it easier for the soil pests to travel through the soil. Sorry if I am beating your thread here to death.

8/20/2020 10:17:43 AM

North Of The Border

I appreciate the help. Hearing what you just said, I may decide to plant the carrots in deeply cultivated soil, with the others only dug 2 feet deep. I can't really control water, because this year, we had a dry year up here, and I couldn't water as much as I wanted too. Next year will hopefully be a good weather year, with some rain, and some sun.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by Worm till. Does this mean getting works in to dig the soil? Not sure I can easily change the fertilizer application rate, because the fertilizer could be good more heavily for some of the plants, and lighter for others, so no great way to do it. I like the idea, but wouldn't work well, because I want to plant the rutabagas, and beets, in one single row, and then take a 5x5 at the end, or in the middle, and do four plants there. This wouldn't work as well with experimental watering, as a large square, or wider rectangle would.

I may try and give one plant more fertilizer, and the other less of each plant, but may be harder. Hope to get something, bot something huge, so hopefully it will work well enough for me. Thanks for all the ideas!

8/20/2020 11:24:07 AM

North Of The Border

Still wondering what work till means. Please help!

8/25/2020 2:33:16 PM

North Of The Border

Worm till not work till.

8/25/2020 2:33:31 PM

Grittyville, WA

Yeah... worm till means let the worms dig their holes and... poop the dirt up at the surface. They can move a lot of dirt, actually. What I mean is, if you take really good care of your worm population, then its not really accurate to say "no-till"... if its being thoroughly tilled by the worms.

8/26/2020 12:12:56 AM