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Greencastle, PA

I am planning on getting some composted manure for my patch. I have 700-800 square feet, I'm still adding space so I don't know the exact size. About how many yards of mnure do I need? And, when they say "yard" is that a cubic yard? Thanks,
Tom

12/21/2001 11:12:41 PM

Commack, NY

"yard" is the term used for any landscaping product, whether it be soil, manure, stone, gravel, etc........a yard is 3x3x3 "box" if you will, of material. it is 27 cubic feet. there's a formula to figure out how much you need, but i cant remember. it has to do with how thick of a layer of material you want, and the square footage you'll be applying it to. How much you apply also depends on your soil composition, and how much organic matter you have in it. if your organic is low, you can pretty much go nuts, but if its a reasonable amount, you would probably want to tone it down slightly from "nuts".

12/22/2001 4:13:58 PM

Long Island,New York

Yes, tone it down from "nuts" to maybe "you gotta be kidding" or maybe "thats insane"....either way, as long as you keep it above " your crazy !" you'll be ok. Pick a level and try it for a year....see what happens, adjust from there......G

12/22/2001 4:58:57 PM

Deer Park WA

Tom,I have found that no matter how much compost you seem to put in the patch. It always seems to not be enough. It disappears as fast as you throw it in. It just depends on the type of soil that you have and how hard you are willing to work improving it.

p.s. ever hear of humic acids?

12/22/2001 7:48:43 PM

Deer Park WA

crap, sorry Tom, 800 square feet of sandy loam would need around 4 cubic yards of compost/manure per year.

12/22/2001 7:52:07 PM

Puyallup, WA

Farmer Tom,
Last year I put on six inches of chicken manure. While that may seem like alot, once it is rototilled twelve inches deep, it virtually disappears. For 800 sq.ft.at 6" thick, that would take about 15 yards. Four yards would only be about two pick-up loads. Remember, you are looking to put your soil's organic content at about 10%. And that folks, is alot of manure!! :>)

12/22/2001 8:40:51 PM

walton n.y.

gads hit the nail on the head i've got sandy soil and have added over 50 yards of manure to my patch over the past 3 years 3 loads of slurry applied at 10,000 / lbs / acre (the neighbors love that ) and have added leaves,peat moss,home made compost and my O.M. is still at 2% the soil is looking much better and with my learning curve improving i've went from 100lbs my first year to 572 my 2nd to 652 last year

12/23/2001 11:16:50 AM

Long Island,New York

Randy...are you tilling too much?............g

12/23/2001 12:30:04 PM

Webster, NY

I've had a load of manure delivered about a week or two ago. So far it's just been sitting on the garden. Should it be tilled in now. The ground is still soft. We haven't had much cold weather so far. Or can it wait til spring?

12/23/2001 3:53:10 PM

Geneseo, NY

Dave, I would recommend tilling it in if you get a chance. The quicker you get it tilled into the soil the quicker it will start to break down. Also makes it easier to till up in the spring especially if we have a wet/late spring. If you are unable to I would at least spread it out now because the pile will absorb rain & snow and be very heavy to move in the spring. This will also help it to start to break down. Personal preference hope it helps. Bill

12/23/2001 5:23:04 PM

Deer Park WA

I have a very small growing area, I add matterial all season, and use a cover crop. Stan is correct in saying 10% organic matter is ideal. Every patch is unique I have added 4 yards per site in the spring and in the fall for the past three years. Randy(2) I live in a residential neighborhood across from a grade school. You ought to see the looks I get after unloading a truck load of stable slurry! They never call the "poopie police on me though because my big pumpkins put Airway Heights on the map here in Spokane County!

Merry Christmas fellow growers, and God Bless.........

12/23/2001 5:45:33 PM

walton n.y.

Glenn, i don't think so just tilling enough to mix it in the soil the property right behind me was stripped out as a gravel bank about 65 ft of sandy gravel strait down taken out i borrow the farmers slurry truck after spring slurry is added wash it out and use the 3750 gallon tank for water storage for my plants i emptied it this fall just outside my patch barely made a puddle

12/23/2001 6:41:41 PM

Puyallup, WA

Randy(2)
Excuse me for being ignorant, but what is "slurry"?

12/23/2001 7:41:07 PM

Long Island,New York

The point I was getting at that Randy apparently isn't doing is that if you overtill, the materials breakdown so much so fast they arent there anymore after being washed down in a sandy soil. Sounds like Randy needs a dumptruck full of silt/loam...might keep things around the root zone longer.Id think you'd want the manures etc to break down enough to be non-burning and around throughout the season....Let the leaves break down througghout the summer......G

12/23/2001 7:52:26 PM

canal winchester ohio

I think I'll chime in on the subject.
As far as manure, if it is applied in the fall or "early winter" I do not think it is possible to apply to much. I applied mine Nov.1st & between the "fresh hot" & the leaf compost is was about 8-9" deep. Also applied some ammonium sulfate to aid in breaking down the leaves & the straw that was in the manure. Have tilled it twice & now the straw is hardly there anymore, & the soil is very "loose" & doesn't compact at all.
As far as neighbors calling the "poopie police", I do live in a sub-division but between putting up with everyones booming stereos, sqeeling tires,not to mention unleashed dogs thinking my yard & porch is their outhouse. Nobody better EVER so a word about 1 week of stink at a time of the year when their windows are up anyhow.
Sorry about that last part, but me & a neighbor had a couple of words........he lost.....LOL........Paul

12/23/2001 9:05:55 PM

Puyallup, WA

Paul,
I have a great neighbor! I have an 11 yard pile of chicken manure very close to his bedroom window right now. Never once has he complained about the huge piles of Tegro or chicken manure that are always piled near the property line!

12/23/2001 10:57:39 PM

Greencastle, PA

Thanks, everyone, for all of your help. I've double dug lots of leaves into my patch, so if it leaches through the sandy loam it should stop at the leaves and pieces of the 157 Schopfer. I will be getting a soil test done in the spring because I wasn't ready this fall. Merry Christmas,
Tom

P.S. 10% OM is ideal, but I heard that Andrew Papez's patch has a little over 19% and Steve Daleta's patch has over 20%. That might be something to experiment with, it did well for them.

12/23/2001 11:21:17 PM

Greencastle, PA

One more thing...
When you say "10% OM" what's the other 40%? I read that soil should have 25% of each water and air, 10% OM, but what's the rest? Thanks,
Tom

12/23/2001 11:28:54 PM

Puyallup, WA

....as opposed to "inorganic matter". "Organic matter is a broad term which includes living soil microorganisms, plants roots, manure, compost, dead and decomposing animals, insects, leaves, stems, sawdust, and many other substances.
Organic matter is the food of the microorganisms that inhabit the soil in incredible numbers."
All About Fertilizers, Soil & Water.....Ortho Books

12/24/2001 12:24:42 AM

Long Island,New York

Water and air are not considered in the % of organics in a soil. Soils are dried of all water when the test is done and the 10% organics is 1/10th of the soil's dry weight....therefore 90% by weight of sand,silt,clay and gravel. The % air has to fit inbetween the particles in the intersticies of the soil and the water is also in those voids and clinging around all the surfaces of the particles.You can have 10% organics,25% air,15%moisture and 90% sand in a single soil sample.........G

12/24/2001 8:35:57 AM

walton n.y.

glenn, you came up with the same plan i had i need more farmers to get manure from and a place that sells large volumes of compost close by and for stan slurry is liquified manure stored in a tank from fall to spring (tank emptied 2x a year) water and microbs are added to make it break down and make it smell horrible

12/24/2001 6:49:08 PM

Puyallup, WA

"liquified manure"....as in cow piss and poop? Sounds like that stuff is made to create "ill will" with the neighbors!!
The thought is sickening!! I can smell it all the way acrossed the United States!! ;>)

12/24/2001 11:36:37 PM

Liverpool , England

Yo stan,
Ill will with the neighbours?...sod them...the pumpkins come first...everything else is just detail.

Alun

Ps "sod them"...is a term meaning ignor them no matter what

12/25/2001 9:02:33 AM

Puyallup, WA

Remember Alun....they can make your life miserable in others ways! Like "accidently" let their dog run loose in your patch!

12/25/2001 2:40:58 PM

Amherst, WI

A friend of mine said he would give me all the cow manure I want, as I start putting it on in the next few weeks, can anyone say for sure how fresh is too fresh? How old is too old to be of much good?

2/20/2002 7:45:22 PM

Commack, NY

regardless of age, manure will add organic matter, which is always good. ask him how old the stuff is. i would say 6 months old at this point in the year is a good place to start. i wouldnt go much fresher then that. some might say go even older.
scott

2/20/2002 10:52:48 PM

Western Pa.

Here's my 2 cents:

Stan, you made the statement above that 2 pick-up loads equal about 4 yards. Measure the heightxwidthxlength of your bed, and you'll find it holds a lot more. My SHORT bed pickup, when heaping, holds 3 yards.
"Overtilling"(more than 2-3 times annually) is done by a lot of my friends, because they want loose,fine, "fluffy" soil. This is a misnomer, for overtilling destroys the "structure" of the soil,"fine" soil will not hold nutrients or moisture like a soil "with lumps"! Also, overtilling (at same depth) will create a layer of "hard pan" or compacted soil underneath your tilled soil. Not a "good thing"!
On "manure", aged is always better than fresh from now on till planting time, too much fresh can "burn" the plants. Also beware of fresh cow manure, I had a friend who left it in his truck overnight, and it ate out his bed!
And finally, Tom, don't be so concerned about the % of OM. If you're working a new patch, I think it would be pretty hard to add too much organic matter.
Alun, over here we have another word for "sod" them! But yours is a lot more organically correct and user friendly!
kilr

2/21/2002 9:29:10 AM

Greencastle, PA

Thanks for the advice, everyone. Another bad thing about over-tilling is that it causes serious damage to the worm population by cutting them up and exposing them to heat and preditors. Thanks again,
Tom

2/21/2002 8:01:49 PM

Liverpool , England

Yo Jim,
I was only being polite...I too could use stronger words...but if the message gets through then that will do. As for neighbours...we garden on land which we rent from the local council...90 plots of land and nobody lives there, we only go to grow our goodies, the site is enclosed with a 8' high fence and padlocked 24 hours a day..only "plot" holders have a key and we all tend to get on well with each other...I leave them alone and they leave my babies alone...they even help with manure and things..It's like a community thing...only gardeners are there. The people who live nearby only complain if we have smokey bonfires so we try to limit them to winter months.


Alun

2/21/2002 8:11:36 PM